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MatPlus.Net Forum Fairies Obscure Popeye goals
 
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(1) Posted by shankar ram [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 11:35]

Obscure Popeye goals


Can someone explain these:
Kxy - something about "kissing" the piece on square xy!
c81 - beats me!
 
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(2) Posted by Joost de Heer [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 13:41]

Looking at the source, c81 is something called 'chess81', no idea what that is exactly. Judging by the examples it's reaching the 8th row.
Kxy is 'kiss the piece that's on square xy', i.e. reach an adjoining square around that piece. Note that the kiss must be an active move, moving the to-be-kissed piece next to another piece does not reach the stipulation.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 14:02]

A term also used in snooker or billiards
 
   
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(4) Posted by shankar ram [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 14:44]

>>> Judging by the examples it's reaching the 8th row.
Where are these examples? They don't seem to be in the zip file with v4.87

>>> ...reach an adjoining square around that piece
Also, all other adjoining squares need to be empty. No public display of affection, please!

>>> ...moving the to-be-kissed piece next to another piece does not reach the stipulation.
That's correct for a piece of the same colour as the to-be-kisser! But an opposite colour victim can move away... and still be kissed on a different square!
Also a same colour target piece can move to a more convenient square to get kissed!
 
   
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(5) Posted by shankar ram [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 15:04]

Surprise, Surprise!
Kiss goal was birthed in the matplus forum in 2014!
http://matplus.net/start.php?px=1686315656&app=forum&act=posts&fid=xshowf&tid=1414&pid=11734&mark=yes&#n11734

It's also supported by WinChloe with the name "-Embrasser la pièce initialement sur xy".
Lynden Lyons' example from the forum is in the WinChloe database (#514990).

EDIT:
Further testing shows differences in implementation between WinChloe and Popeye:

Both allow the target piece to be of either colour.
Both allow the target piece to be already kissed in the diagram position.
Both allow the target piece to be kissed on squares other than its initial square.

If the target piece is already kissed in the diagram position, Popeye does not allow that kiss to be retained. A fresh kiss is required.
If the target piece is already kissed in the diagram position, WinChloe allows that kiss to be retained. A fresh kiss is also optional.

Popeye does not allow the kissing move to be made by the target piece.
WinChloe allows the kissing move to be made by the target piece.

In the final position, Popeye does not allow more than one piece, of any colour, to be adjacent to the target piece.
In the final position, WinChloe does not allow more than one piece, of the same colour as the target piece, to be adjacent to it.
In the final position, WinChloe allows more than one piece, of the opposite colour as the target piece, to be adjacent to it.
 
 
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(6) Posted by Joost de Heer [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 15:27]

It's in the REGRESSIONTESTS directory on github: https://github.com/thomas-maeder/popeye/blob/master/REGRESSIONTESTS/chess81.out
 
   
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(7) Posted by shankar ram [Friday, Jun 9, 2023 15:49]

Thanks, Joost!
I traced those problems by Werner Keym in WinChloe.
And what do you know: It's called "Chess 8/1", with the definition: "No side can move anymore if a piece ends up on its last rank".
That seems a bit unclear. Looks like the goal is to simply reach the last rank with Black defending by doing the same.

EDIT:
This has been interpreted differently by WinChloe and Popeye.

WinChloe considers "Chess 8/1" as a condition ("No side can move anymore if a piece ends up on its last rank").
In addition, there is a goal called "-dernière rangée" ("move to the last rank").

Popeye considers c81 as a goal ("move to the last rank").

Consider this position: WBg2, BPh2, BPb7 with "move to the last rank in 2" as the stipulation.

In WinChloe with the added condition "Chess 8/1": 1.Bxb7? h1=~! 1.Bh1! b7~ 2.Ba8.
In WinChloe without the added condition "Chess 8/1": 1.Bxb7!, 1.Bd5!, 1.Bh1! and 1.Bh3! all work.

In Popeye with stipulation as c812: 1.Bxb7!, 1.Bd5!, 1.Bh1! and 1.Bh3! all work.

The four pioneer problems by Werner Keym (feenschach, 2011) are C+ in both WinChloe and Popeye.
But what was his original intention?
I couldn't find an entry in the Die Schwalbe Lexicon (https://www.dieschwalbe.de/lexikon.htm).
 
 
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(8) Posted by Thomas Maeder [Wednesday, Jun 14, 2023 16:12]

If I remember correctly, I developed Popeye's implementation in collaboration with Werner Keym, and he agreed with it.
 
 
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(9) Posted by shankar ram [Saturday, Jun 17, 2023 06:59]

I had mentioned earlier that there were 4 pioneer problems by Keym.
I was wrong. There are actually 6 in all. 5 in feenchach 2011 and 1 in Die Schwalbe 2012.
These are given below as A-F.
A, B, and C have cooks. D, E, and F are sound.
It looks like WInChloe introduced the condition :"Chess 8/1" to rectify the cooks in the first 3 problems.
This condition is not needed in the last 3.

A (feenschach 2011): WKe4, WRe2; BKh5, BBh4; Move to last rank in 7 (cx817 in Popeye)
Intention: 1.Rh2 Kg4 2.Rg2+ Bg3 3.Rg1 Kh3 4.Rh1+ Bh2 5.Kf3 Kh4 6.Rxh2+ 7.Kh8
Popeye v4.87: Cooks 1.R-a2/b2/c2/d2/e1/e3/f2/g2, K-d3/d4/d5/e3/e5/f3/f4/f5
But the file "popeye-4.87/REGRESSIONTESTS/chess81.out" shows only the intended solution and not the cooks.
WinChloe v3.55 (Without condition "Chess 8/1"): Cooks 1.R-a2/b2/c2/d2/e1/e3/f2/g2, K-d3/d4/d5/e3/e5/f3/f4/f5
WinChloe v3.55 (With condition "Chess 8/1"): Shows the intended solution only.

B (feenschach 2011): Wke1, WRh1; BKg3, BBh4; Move to last rank in 3 (cx813 in Popeye)
Intention: 1.0-0 (2.Rf8) Bf6 2.Rxf6 ~ 3.Rf8
Popeye v4.87: Cooks 1.0-0! 1.Ke2!
file "popeye-4.87/REGRESSIONTESTS/chess81.out" shows only the intended solution and not the cook.
WinChloe v3.55 (Without condition "Chess 8/1"): Cooks 1.0-0! 1.Ke2!
WinChloe v3.55 (With condition "Chess 8/1"): Shows the intended solution only.

C (feenschach 2011): Wke1, WRh1; BKg8, BShd8, BSh8. BPh7; Move to last rank in 3 (cx813 in Popeye)
Intention: 1.0-0 (2.Ra1) Shf7 2.Ra1 ~ 3.Ra8
Popeye v4.87: Cooks 1.0-0! 1.Rh5!
file "popeye-4.87/REGRESSIONTESTS/chess81.out" shows only 1.Rh5! and not 1.0-0.
WinChloe v3.55 (Without condition "Chess 8/1"): Cooks 1.0-0! 1.Rh5!
WinChloe v3.55 (With condition "Chess 8/1"): Shows the intended solution only.

D (feenschach 2011): WKd4, WSd1; BKa2; White forces Black to move to his last rank in 3
Intention: 1.Kc3! (2.Kb4) 1...Ka3 2.Sb2 Ka2 3.Sc4 La1/b1.
Popeye 4.87, file "chess81.out", WinChloe v3.55 (with or without condition "Chess 8/1") all show the intention, without any cooks.

E (feenschach 2011): WKf5, WPh6; BKh7 BBg7; Black helps White to reach his last rank in 2 moves. 1.1.1.4.
Intention: 1.Bg7 hxg7 2.Kh6 g8=Q/R/B/S.
Popeye 4.87, file "chess81.out", WinChloe v3.55 (with or without condition "Chess 8/1") all show the intention, without any cooks.

F (Die Schwalbe 2012): WKd4, WBf2; BKd2; White forces Black to move to his last rank in 3
Intention: 1.Be1+ Kc2 2.Bc3 Kb2 3.Bb4 Ka2 4.Kc3 Ka1/b1; 3...Kc2 4.Bc3 Kb1/c1/d1. 1...Ke2 2.Ke4 Kd1/xe1/f1
Popeye 4.87, WinChloe v3.55 (with or without condition "Chess 8/1") all show the intention, without any cooks.
Not present in file "chess81.out".

To summarise, the original intention was the goal "move to your last rank".
Implemented in Popeye as "c81" and in WinChloe as "-dernière rangée".
"Chess 8/1" is a separate condition: "No side can move anymore if a piece ends up on its last rank".
"Chess 8/1" is implemented in WinChloe only and serves to make the first 3 problems sound.
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum Fairies Obscure Popeye goals