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MatPlus.Net  Forum Competitions WCCI 2019-2021 - Results |
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| | Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | (41) Posted by Marcos Roland [Monday, Sep 5, 2022 21:43] |
This unfortunate incident may be the result of a human mistake, of course, and I sincerely hope it was, but what a bad mistake! I think the situation is embarrasing, and I wait, I think we all wait, for explanations and appropriate action from the Director Valery Kopyl. We need the review and correction of the results as soon as possible, in order to get an overall picture of the real judgement and restore credibility. This concerns the credibility of the entire process, not only of the judgement of the section B.
| | | (42) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 14:17] |
The main page post, the page with the results, the spreadsheet and the file with the top-rated compositions of section B have been updated on the WFCC site.
| | | (43) Posted by Valery Gurov [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 14:33] |
И Валерий Копыл не объяснит, почему так получилось?
Замечательная организация, Harry! Если бы это был русский директор, то давно уже следственный комитет под руководством Lipton назначили :-)
Не смешно.
| | | (44) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 14:56] |
@Valery Gurov
This is the explanation of what happened from the WFCC website:
"(06.09.2022) Update: The director apologises for the unfortunate mistake that slipped in the threemovers (section B) spreadsheet. While entering the judges’ scores, he accidentally filled in the column of C.G..S Narayanan’s marks with those of Sergey I. Tkachenko. Such oversights may happen, particularly when someone works under harsh conditions. The files of the results and the top-rated threemovers are now updated."
| | | (45) Posted by Valery Gurov [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 15:16] |
@Kostas:
И "случайно" (как так?? два раза??) заполнив оценки индийского судьи Валерий Копыл потом аккуратно заполнил оценки задач Ткаченко от самого индийского судьи? И не понял, что что то случилось??
Вы там что, дурачки все???
| | | (46) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 17:40] |
Valery, this is a good question: Narayanan's scores on Tkachenko's problems were correct the first time. How did this happen? I don't know, but I guess the director saw that something was missing and went back and copied the correct scores the second time.
You want to blame the director for intentionally fixing the results. No explanation by him, or anyone else will change your opinion. This was a very serious mistake, but if it were intentional, it would be less obvious. This is how I see it. I don't claim to know what and how it happened, but I can assure you that stupid mistakes happen all the time. Especially when the conditions are stressful, rushed and extraordinary.
| | | (47) Posted by Marcos Roland [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 22:02] |
The treatment of this issue here in the forum has been marked by deafening silences. Quite a long time after Valery Gurov's intervention came that of Kostas Prentos, which could maybe also have been signed by Peter Gvozdjak, reaffirming and defending the explanations allegedly offered by director Valery Kopyl to the WFCC.
I was hesitant to participate, but given that, so far, no one has even closely expressed my impressions and feelings on the matter, I would like to do it myself in a nutshell.
The mistake made by director Valery Kopyl was serious and unforgivable. Even if it was pure human error, it was serious and unforgivable. In this case, Caesar's aphorism applies: " to Caesar's wife, it is not enough for her to be honest, she also needs to appear honest".
Fact is that such "human error" raises serious suspicions of having been motivated by a vile attempt, fortunately defrauded, of defrauding and corrupting the results of section B, in a behavior odiously offensive to civilized and respectful coexistence within this community of problemists. At least I felt offended and deceived. So far, we have only suspicions, but they are eloquently serious and well-founded suspicions. So serious are the suspicions that the quoted Caesar's aphorism apllies even more appropriately than in its original use.
"Well", now the appropriate action is up to the governing body of the WFCC. We are waiting!
I believe, that,(un)fortunately, we do not need in this case any committee headed by Mr. Lipton to take some unquestionable minimum steps: 1) to declare the suspicion of Mr. Valery Kopyl to act as a judge or director in any future competition held under the auspices of the WFCC; 2) to ask the other judges who acted in the present WCCI to check if all the marks attributed by them were correctly transcribed in the results sheets that appear on the WFCC website; and perhaps 3rd) to emphatically recommend to the judges of any competition held by the WFCC in the future to refrain from any "human errors" that could cause such a stir of suspicion.
| | | (48) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Tuesday, Sep 6, 2022 22:14] |
I can't believe my eyes that somebody might think that anybody could so stupid and falsify the scores intentionally just by copying the scores given other judge... it would be actually one of the most stupid ways to cheat, as not only the judge with wrong scores used could catch the issue, but almost anyone who studies the results from specific viewpoint. It is more than obvious that on the bottom was copying error.
Please, raise hands, who also thinks that the composing GM could be so stupid and admits the possibility of intentional cheating... I hope no other hand will be raised.
| | | (49) Posted by Marcos Roland [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 00:21] |
Juraj, the essential question is not about stupidity, but about character. Could someone commit such a vile action? If he could, many possibilities arise. For instance, he could think: "Well, I'll try this. If it doesn't work, I'll say that I wouldn't be so stupid to do it intentionally." And he would easily get the support of some people who don't like the people directly damaged by the vile action, do you understand? So, stupidity or intelligence are beside the point. In fact, such try might as well be a clever one.
| | | (50) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 00:30] |
Marcos, my replies so far are exclusively based on how I see the facts. I don't care to defend anyone or anything, except for the common sense. When I see a comment that no explanation was offered when there was an explanation, I point it out. When I see an attack based on speculation, I go with the common sense.
Here are the facts: The director made a serious mistake in section B. The mistake was discovered (I would have expected the judge whose scores were misrepresented to find it first, but someone else did). The scores were corrected and the winners changed. The director apologized and offered a rough explanation of how it happened. Everything else is just speculation, and I dare say the attacks (and defenses) are motivated by the fact that the director is Ukranian. Suppose it was me, or you, who made this mistake. Do you think the reaction would be the same? It is embarrassing enough to have made this serious mistake. Let's spare the accusations that it was intentional. I am sure there are better ways to cheat, if that's what you want. Making such a blatant error hardly qualifies for a successful plot.
You can ask the WFCC for disciplinary action against the director. I don't care. The problem is we need volunteers more than they need us. Your 2nd proposal is a no-brainer. Of course the judges need to check their scores for accuracy (they are the only ones who know their scores and can compare). I wrote the same thing already. As for your 3rd proposal, forgive me, but I don't understand. Do you suggest that if the WFCC urges judges and directors to "refrain" from making mistakes, mistakes will stop happening?
Juraj, common sense is not very common these days. It started with covid, maybe earlier, then the war in Ukraine. These are weird times.
| | | (51) Posted by Marcos Roland [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 02:32] |
Dear Kostas Prentos, I apologise if I somehow hurt your feelings. Far be it from me such an intention!
I begin this way because you seem to suggest I have no brain, and I can assure you that I have one, and I think you believe I have, and if you suggested this, it is maybe because you are angry with me. Please, don't!
My second suggestion could be seen as a mere formality, to ask people to do something they are supposed to do anyway. But formalities, as well certain safety measures, may be necessary sometimes. In this case, I think all of us would become more assured if the WFCC declare, after such a "formality", that all the results are faithfull expression of the judgement delivered by the judges.
As for my third proposal, of course you grasped the irony behind it. And I think you equally understood what kind of mistakes I think the directors and the judges must especially avoid: the mistakes that could be considered malicious and intentional, that would further your self-interest or that of your friends, your country, your family, etc. Even if they are pure mistakes, human mistakes, they certainly will provoke unavoidable suspicions. To carefully avoid them protects everyone, the directors and judges themselves, and the organization.
| | | (52) Posted by Marcos Roland [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 02:56] |
And dear Kostas Prentos, you suggested something about which I would like to emphatically talk a little more. I have nothing against the Ukrainians in general. Especially in chess, some of my great idols were or are Ukrainians: David Bronstein, Vassily Ivanchuk, Valentin Rudenko, Mihailo Marandyuk, etc., etc. By the way, I like also some Valery Kopyl's problems, and I sent several of my problems for publication in his magazine, because I like The Problemist in Ukraine. And I have been always in good terms with him, I always buy his books at the Congresses, etc.
That brings me to a topic I was ready to comment here before this results affair started. This thread was in a certain point filled with discussion about the judgements of certain specific problems. And I had the intention to mention, both in the positive and the negative side of the issue, two problems by grandmaster Alexander Semenenko. First, I was enchanted by this veritable masterpiece:
JT Mykola Kolesnik-50, 2019
1st Prize
 (= 4+15 )
h#3 3 sol.
1.bxa3 Bc4 2.Kc3 Ba6+ 3.Kb4 Rc4#
1.Sxe6 Rc4+ 2.Ke5 Rxg4 3.Rd5 Sc4#
1.Kxc5 Sc4 2.Kb5 Sb2 3.Sc5 Bc4#
This is vintage Semenenko! Let's quote GM Mykola Kolesnik, acting as judge of his JT-50: "A complex that is hard to implement: cyclic interchange of first and third
moves of white pieces to the same square in combination with cyclic Zilahi. All the solutions involve the blocking of black king’s flights which are occupied by white pieces in the diagram position. Absence of WHITE pawns and model mates are signs of the author’s grandmaster level."
| | | (53) Posted by Marcos Roland [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 03:22] |
I cannot say the same of this problem, which was, in my view, mistakenly selected for the FIDE Album:
 (= 2+13 )
h#7
1.Be7 Kh8 2.Sa1 Kg7 3.Sb3 axb3 4.Qh1 bxc4 5.Qd5 cxd5 6.Ra8 dxe6 7.Rd8 exf7#
I think the judges went wrong selecting this problem, but my point is: if they have made a mistake, as I think they have, that was a human mistake, I am sure. Some of the judges simply don't have so much knowledge about long helpmates, and they maybe let themselves be impressed by the contundent text of the distinguished author (equally not an expert in long helpmates): “For the first time ever in a helpmate with a single line of play, four different pieces make captureless moves to four different corners and then leave the corner squares on the next move, also without capturing.”
I think this problem is colourless, schematic. I am sure that if the text above is presented as a requirement in a thematic tournament, there'll be dozens of entries much better than it.
To be noticed that the judge Michel Caillaud, who is a very eccletic composer, didn't let himself be impressed by Semenenko's lip service. I think he marked the problem correctly: he gave two points to it, that means, it's a publishable work, or little more than that.
| | | (54) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 07:16] |
Marcos, I am certainly not angry at you, or anyone else in this forum. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. It took me a while to understand what you meant about me suggesting you have no brain. The expression "no-brainer" means something that requires little thought, something obvious. Suggesting that the judges double-check their scores is the obvious thing, the best way to catch mistakes. I suggested the same thing a few posts earlier (post 38). I agree 100% with your 2nd proposal and this is what I tried to express with that sentence. I am sorry it led you to think that I somehow questioned your intelligence. Maybe I should avoid using slang (casual language) in a forum like this, where for most of the participants (including me) English is their second language.
I know what you implied with your 3rd proposal, and I also know there is bad faith, especially between Russians and Ukrainians that goes many years back. I was the judge in a previous WCCI when Dmitri Turevski was the director. That time, the Ukrainian side demanded that all judges send their scores exactly at the deadline, not earlier, to avoid some kind of manipulation of the results. This made absolutely no sense to me, but it could be explained if you consider that the two sides had a distrust of each other. In any case, I privately expressed my full support and trust to Dmitri, who by the way did an outstanding job as director. It is really sad that the first reaction here, when the mistake of the current director of the WCCI was discovered, was that something malicious was behind all this. So I do not agree with what your 3rd proposal implies, because it accepts as fact what I consider to be wrong; that there was malice on behalf of the director. I agree it was a very serious mistake, I agree it did not look good either, but I refuse to accept it was intentional. It is simply not convincing to me. That's why I wrote that if I (or you) made this mistake, the reaction would be quite different.
| | | (55) Posted by Valery Gurov [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 07:59] |
@Kostas:
Я математик и психолог (Московский государственный университет 1984-1992, служба в армии). Это азы психологии - делаешь глупую ошибку и именно в оценках индийского судьи, который не смотрит в интернет. И ждешь :-)
В любом случае Копыл не должен быть больше директором, если остальные участники уважают себя.
| | | (56) Posted by Valery Gurov [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 08:02] |
Маркос,
этот шедевр - абсолютное повторение замысла задачи Крижвановского. Но отличное повторение - в этом я с тобой согласен! И поздравляю Александра Семененко.
| | | (57) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 08:36] |
One human question arose - did the President of WFCC and the director WCCI apologize to Igor Agapov and Valery Shavyrin?
| | | (58) Posted by Thomas Maeder [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 09:05] |
You can find a quote of the director's apology further up in this thread. As far as I can tell, the president wasn't involved in the mistake - why should he apologize?
As I see it, this case proves that the WCCI procedure has worked very well:
1. a mistake has been made (something that has happened to us all, I assume)
2. the mistake has been found (thanks to Mikhail Khramtsevich)
3. the mistake has been corrected
| | | (59) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 09:34] |
The President WFCC is responsible for all issues of the organization of the work of the WFCC, including the illegal exclusion of Russian team from the 11 WCCT.
| | | (60) Posted by Kenan Velikhanov [Wednesday, Sep 7, 2022 18:06] |
Judges have many sins, especially Nikolai Kolesnik and Vladislav Nefedov. Therefore, the results should be canceled or revised.
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