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MatPlus.Net Forum General Minimal Material To Correctly Show A Theme In The #2
 
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(21) Posted by Joose Norri [Monday, Jul 11, 2022 22:12]

In "20 years of Theme Vladimirov" (MatPlus 15/Autumn 1997) Milan writes:

Even with physically identical moves, there is a case when the pattern becomes trivial. This is, of course, mutual capture of white and black thematic pieces, implying the prefix "non-". Miniature https://www.yacpdb.org/#1425 has often been quoted as an miraculous example, but although it is a good problem with pointed tries threatening Qg8 and a good key 1.Qd8! (...), the impression is much better if two Vladimirov tries are not mentioned at all!! Such "non-Vladimirov" theme can be shown in at least 10 variations (Kf2 Qh1 Ra1 h8 Sd6 - Ka8 Ra7 b8 pe4 f5, 1.Kf2!).

So for Milan that goes for https://www.yacpdb.org/#146465 too.
 
 
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(22) Posted by Rosie Fay [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 07:29]

I don't see how the first problem in post 16, https://www.yacpdb.org/#141546 (Werner Speckmann) shows Banny. Popeye gives the solution and try-play as:

Tries:
1 Kf4? Kh2! a
1 Kf2? Kh4! b
Solution:
1 Kf3! Kh2 a 2 Qg2#; 1 ... Kh4 b 2 Qg4#

(Letters are mine.) Black's refutations to White's two thematic tries do indeed return as defences after White's key. But Vladimirov and Banny require that White's mating moves be White's try-moves in some order, and they are not.

I am not aware of Banny being shown with fewer than 5 units.
 
 
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(23) Posted by Rosie Fay [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 07:56]

The lightest Dombrovskis I know of is this one:
(= 3+1 )

Hans Gruber, Sächsische Zeitung, 5 Jun 1981
PDB P1013377
#2

I'm intrigued at the statement that Roman can be shown with 4 units. I'm not aware of any directmate Roman of any length with fewer than 5. Mind you, PDB might have a 4-unit Roman which I failed to find because it isn't keyed as Roman.
 
 
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(24) Posted by Jan Hein Verduin [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 09:20]

 QUOTE 
Reciprocal mate change with 6 pieces: https://www.yacpdb.org/#139357


Reciprocal change has been done with five pieces, albeit with flight(s)-taking try & key:
https://www.yacpdb.org/#537617
 
   
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(25) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 10:06]

@Jan-Hein: Overlooked that because it wasn't tagged.
@Rosie: https://www.yacpdb.org/#76871
 
   
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(26) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 13:20]

Minimum not minimal, I think. Congrats to all! :)
 
   
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(27) Posted by shankar ram [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 20:48]

I believe "Kontrawechsel" (which also incorporates the Banny theme) has been shown with 4 pieces.
See comment to https://juliasfairies.com/problems/no-1224/
Does anybody know the problem?
 
   
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(28) Posted by shankar ram [Tuesday, Jul 12, 2022 20:59]

My favourite example: A 4-piece mutate/perpetuum mobile #3 also showing a reciprocal change of 3rd move mates!

W.A.Shinkman, Tiffin Tribune, 1898, WKf4/WRg2/BKh5/BPh7, #3*

Set: 1...h6/Kh6 2.Rg1/Kf5 Kh4(x)/Kh5(y) 3.Rh1(A)/Rh2(B)#
1.Rg1! Zz
1...h6/Kh6 2.Rg2/Kf5 Kh4(x)/Kh5(y) 3.Rh2(B)/Rh1(A)#
 
   
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(29) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Wednesday, Jul 13, 2022 06:43]

As pointed out by Joose Norri above, quoting from an article by MV, the 'authentic' Vladimirov can't display a mutual captures mechanism (these examples are just "non" (or 'pseudo'!?) Vlads...

A *correct one, and quite economic, with features pushing toward the "Ideal" - of the (say!?) Serbian School - is the fourth example in this online article (10 pieces)

https://www.chessproblem.net/viewtopic.php?t=493

EDIT: But the 'Vladimirov Paradox' was shown in Miniature form https://www.yacpdb.org/#431759
 
   
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(30) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Jul 13, 2022 08:58]

@Shankar: Speckmann's Tanagra collection alone has 4 examples
(albeit not #2). See e.g. https://www.yacpdb.org/#76588

You could do a #2 Banny on a 9*>4 board, I bet someone did
that stunt before me (even with a twin: bishop<>nightrider):
(= 3+1 )

1.Ld5 A? Kd1 a! 1.Lf3 B? Kb1 b! 1.Ti1! aB/bA
1.Nb4 A? Kd1 a! 1.Ng3 B? Kb1 b! 1.Ti1! aB/bA
(EDIT obviously and unfortunately, the twin is cooked by Nd3+,
but you can simply shift the rook)
 
   
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(31) Posted by shankar ram [Wednesday, Jul 13, 2022 13:10]

Yeah. I did. And it was anticipated too!
Victor Menichenko, Special Prize, Buletin Problemistic, 1978
WKg3, WQa6, WBb1, WPe2; BKg1, BPg2. (4+2) #2
1.Bd3? Kh1! (1...Kf1 2.Qa1#)
1.Be4? Kf1! (1...Kh1 2.Qa1#)
1.Qa1! (2.B~)
1...Kf1 2.Be2#
1...Kh1 2.Be4#
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Minimal Material To Correctly Show A Theme In The #2