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MatPlus.Net Forum General Construct the longest ser-x with a Black homebase
 
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(61) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Tuesday, Mar 22, 2022 20:56]

(= 4+16 )

ser-s=16 (C?)

(= 5+16 )

ser-s=19 (C?)

Can this one be correct?

Here is an answer to Olaf's question:

Intended solution:
1.Bf3 2.-6.hxg8R 7.Rxg7 8.Rxf7 9.Rf6
10.Rb6 11.Rxb7 12.Rxb8 13.Bxa8 14.Rb7
15.Ka6 16.-18.bxa7 19.Qh5+ Rxh5=

cook: 11.Bxb7 12.Bxa8 13.Rxb8 and then the same. Due to this
issue there is no determination in white moves.
 
   
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(62) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Tuesday, Mar 22, 2022 22:02]

(61) Second problem is C-.
 
   
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(63) Posted by Joost de Heer [Tuesday, Mar 22, 2022 23:15]

(61) first one, will a pawn on b4 instead of a knight on a3 work for a ser-s=17?
 
   
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(64) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Tuesday, Mar 22, 2022 23:28]

No, it's shorter.

with knight:
11.Rxb8 12.Rb7 13.Ka6 14.Sb5 15.Sxa7 16.Bh5 Rxh5=
With pawn:
11.Rxa7 12.Rxc7 13.Kb6 14.b5 15.Bh5 Rxh5=

(61) first one, is C+ .

What is the intended solution of the ser-s=19 ?
 
   
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(65) Posted by Michal Dragoun [Tuesday, Mar 22, 2022 23:50]

(= 7+16 )

ser-s=21 (C?)
But I think that it must be cooked.
Without Ba2 it could be ser-!=20 as well.

EDIT
Intended solution: 1. Bd4 2.-8. c4-c5-c6-cxb7-bxc8B-Bb7-Bxa8 9. b7 10.-12. Bxa7-Bb6-Bxc7 13.-14. Kb6-Ka7 15.-19. Bd6-Bxe7-Bxf8-Bxg7-Bxh8 20. g7 21. Bxf7+ Kxf7=
(Eventually wPh6 can be added.)
 
 
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(66) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 06:35]

@(64) Olaf, I edited my previous post and I wrote the intended solution and cook.
 
 
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(67) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 08:22]

Time for a second interim balance:
Current records are:

ser-s# .15 .... Jost de Heer
ser-s= .21 .... Michal Dragoun (C-)
Ser-h# .11 .... Michel Caillaud/Arno Tüngler
Ser-# ...11 .... (starter) Arno Tüngler
Ser-!= ..20 .... Michal Dragoun (C-)
Ser-!# ..13 .... Olaf Jenkner
 
   
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(68) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 10:56]

@(65) Michal, can you please write intended solution (ser-s=21). It's very difficult to solve it. Then I can perhaps check for similar cooks (if any) manually.

Also can someone explain me what does mean ser-!=n. I am not familiar with ! condition? Actually it would be nice if solutions are published for all problems (maybe in a separate post so that someone who is willing to solve problems can do that without checking solution).
 
   
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(69) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 11:14]

I give two solutions of my problems, how the stipulations ser-!= and ser-!# work, is easily to be seen.

This is the solution of post (43)
1.f4 2.f5 3.f6 4.fxe7 5.exf8=S 6.Sxd7 7.Sf8 8.Sxh7=

This is the solution of post (50)
1.Kh4 2.g5 3.Bh5 4.f4 5.f5 6.f6 7.fxe7 8.exf8=S 9.Sxd7 10.Sc5 11.Se4 12.Sg3 13.g6#
The last move looks illegal but fits the stipulation !# .
 
   
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(70) Posted by Michal Dragoun [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 12:01]

Re (68): I added intended solution to the diagram.
 
   
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(71) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 12:51]

@(68) Michal, great problem. Very nice play.
Can this position work to add few more moves?
(= 7+16 )

ser-s=24

1.b6 2.Bc4 3.Kb5 4.Bc5 5.-8.axb7 etc.
It looks to me that determination of moves works fine. Of course it's very questionable if C+.
 
   
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(72) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 12:59]

Cooked in 22 moves:
1.fxg7 2.gxf8=S 3.Bxb7 4.Bxc8 5.Ka5 6.Bd6 7.b6 8.Bxc7 9.Bxb8 10.Be5 11.Bb7 12.Bxa8 13.Ka6 14.Kxa7 12.a4 16.a5 17.a6 18.Bxh8 19.b7 20.g7 21.Se6 22.Sc7+ Qxc7=
 
   
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(73) Posted by Joost de Heer [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 20:53]

 QUOTE 

Also can someone explain me what does mean ser-!=n

Auto-stalemate in n moves: White plays n moves and is then stalemated (so black doesn't play at all).
 
   
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(74) Posted by Frank Richter [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 21:07]

Dedicated to Olaf :)

(= 4+16 )

ser-!#14, C+

1.Bd1 2.b4 5.b:c7 6.c:b8Q 7.Qe5 8.Q:g7 9.Q:g8 10.Qg7 11.Kh6 12.g5 13.Bh5 14.Q:h7#

Interesting question arises looking at mating position - last black move?!?
 
   
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(75) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 21:26]

g7xSf8=B
 
 
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(76) Posted by Joost de Heer [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 21:55]

Frank's ser-!#14 is cooked according to Jacobi: 1.Bc4 2.b3 3.b4 4.b5 5.Bd5 6.b6 7.Kf5 8.Ke5 9.bxc7 10.cxb8=S 11.Sc6 12.Sxe7 13.Kd6 14.Kxd7+!#. Popeye also gives similar cooks. So with what program was this C+'ed, and what are the exact rules for !#? Apparently Jacobi and Popeye both think that the kings can end up next to each other.

And does this work?
(= 2+16 )

ser-!#14
5.gh8=Q 6. Qd4 7. Qa7 8. Qa8 9. Qb8 10. Qb7 14. Kc8!#
 
   
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(77) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 22:02]

Frank used Gustav.
The question is: Is a king move touching the black king allowed?
When I programmed Gustav I didn't care much about such things.
I thought the rules are easy, apparently they are not.

Hans Gruber told me, that in the 80-ies those questions were clarified.
Sorry Frank, your problem is cooked according the rules we did not know before.
 
   
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(78) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Mar 23, 2022 22:25]

Yes, but there's a cook 6.Qb2.
It is easy to avoid by adding a bishop on b2.

(= 3+16 )

ser-!#14 C+

1. h4 2. h5 3. h6 4. hxg7 5. gxh8=Q 6. Qd4 7. Qxa7 8. Qxa8 9. Qxb8 10. Qxb7 11. Ka6 12. Ka7 13. Kb8 14. Kxc8!#

Time for a third interim balance:
Current records are:

ser-s# .15 .... Joost de Heer
ser-s= .21 .... Michal Dragoun (C?)
Ser-h# .11 .... Michel Caillaud/Arno Tüngler
Ser-# ...11 .... (starter) Arno Tüngler
Ser-!= ..20 .... Michal Dragoun (C?)
Ser-!# ..10 .... Joost de Heer
Ser-!# MMM 14 .. Joost de Heer
Ser-!# MMM 14 ..Frank Richter
 
   
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(79) Posted by Joost de Heer [Thursday, Mar 24, 2022 06:57]

My ser-!#14 is also cooked with 12. Kd7!#. If we accept that kings may touch each other on the last move, then I have this C+ (Jacobi/Popeye) version. Almost anything else is probably cooked by the white king going to d7. It almost reminds me of a fairy chess competition where someone proposed Vogtländer chess for game play, an idea that was abandoned very fast when someone discovered that white always wins by using his king as a kamikaze pilot, blindly storming forward.

(= 2+16 )

ser-!#10
1. h4 2. h5 3. h6 4. hg7 5. gf8=B 6. Be7 7. Bd6 8. Bc7 9. Kd6 10. Kd7!#

PS: Oolaf, my name is Joost :)
PS2: In your list you have 'C-' for Michal's compositions. That usually means 'cooked'. Not-computertested is 'C?'.
 
   
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(80) Posted by Frank Richter [Thursday, Mar 24, 2022 08:08]

Well, it's Fairy Chess, but looks strange nevertheless.

I add the condition "KKK" (Kein Königs-Kontakt) to my problem, in English MMM (Majesties Mustn't Meet) :)
 
   
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Construct the longest ser-x with a Black homebase