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MatPlus.Net Forum General Construct the longest ser-x with a Black homebase
 
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(301) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 14:18]

I am trying to use Popeye to do some tests. However it looks like ser-a=>b... stopped working. For example this simple input does not return solution:

BeginProblem
Author Unknown
Origin Unknown
Forsyth rsbqkbsr/pppp1ppp/8/8/8/8/4p3/4K3
Stipulation ser-a=>b4
Forsyth rsbqkbsr/pppp1ppp/8/K7/8/8/4p3/8
Option Intelligent MaxSolutions 10 Variation
EndProblem

I am sure that I did not enter something properly but the help file is not very descriptive so I have no idea what I should change?
 
 
(Read Only)pid=23048
(302) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 14:18]

I am trying to use Popeye to do some tests. However it looks like ser-a=>b... stopped working. For example this simple input does not return solution:

BeginProblem
Author Unknown
Origin Unknown
Forsyth rsbqkbsr/pppp1ppp/8/8/8/8/4p3/4K3
Stipulation ser-a=>b4
Forsyth rsbqkbsr/pppp1ppp/8/K7/8/8/4p3/8
Option Intelligent MaxSolutions 10 Variation
EndProblem

I am sure that I did not enter something properly but the help file is not very descriptive so I have no idea what I should change?

Here is an output:

Popeye Windows-64Bit v4.73 (8628 MB)

Unknown
Unknown

+---a---b---c---d---e---f---g---h---+
| |
8 -R -S -B -Q -K -B -S -R 8
| |
7 -P -P -P -P . -P -P -P 7
| |
6 . . . . . . . . 6
| |
5 . . . . . . . . 5
| |
4 . . . . . . . . 4
| |
3 . . . . . . . . 3
| |
2 . . . . -P . . . 2
| |
1 . . . . K . . . 1
| |
+---a---b---c---d---e---f---g---h---+
1 + 16

=> (White ->)


+---a---b---c---d---e---f---g---h---+
| |
8 -R -S -B -Q -K -B -S -R 8
| |
7 -P -P -P -P . -P -P -P 7
| |
6 . . . . . . . . 6
| |
5 K . . . . . . . 5
| |
4 . . . . . . . . 4
| |
3 . . . . . . . . 3
| |
2 . . . . -P . . . 2
| |
1 . . . . . . . . 1
| |
+---a---b---c---d---e---f---g---h---+
ser-a=>b4 1 + 16


solution finished. Time = 0.021 s

So diagrams are recognized properly and it shows like it's a white move but it does not solve it?
 
 
(Read Only)pid=23049
(303) Posted by Dragan Stojnić [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 14:57]

I found new scheme for ser hs#14(C?)
(= 8+16 )



My solution- 1.e5 2.Qf6 5.Kf5 8.Kh2 11.Ke2 12.Ke3 14.Kd1 - Bf3+ Qxf3#

P.S.
However cooked in 12. I will try correct it...
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23050
(304) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 18:16]

(237) cooked:
1. dxe6 2. exf6 3. f5 4. hxg6 5. Kd7 6. Rxh3 7. Rg3 8. Kd6 9. Ke5 10. Kf4 11. Ke3 12. f4 ; Bg1+ Rxg1#

Is there one correct ser-hs# with 12 ore more moves left? Perhaps not.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23054
(305) Posted by Dragan Stojnić [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 19:13]

(298) in 13 moves?
I dont saw objections...
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23055
(306) Posted by Joost de Heer [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 19:30]

@Miodrag (302)

You didn't make an error in the Popeye file, but Popeye is correct that there's no solution, as b4 is guarded by Bf8.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23056
(307) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 20:36]

(298) is cooked:
1. a5 2. a4 3. Bxe6 4. Ra5 5. Rxb5 6. Kd7 7. Kc6 8. Kxc5 9. Kb4 10. Re5 11. Rxe1 12. c5 13. Qa5 ; a3+ Kb3#
or
1. a6 2. axb5 3. d5 4. Ra3 5. Rc3 6. Bxe6 7. Bg4 8. Qd6 9. Kd7 10. Kc6 11. Kxc5 12. Kd4 13. Qc5 ; bxc3+ Qxc3#

See post (310)
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23057
(308) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 21:16]

@(306)
You are right. Actually I made this mistake when I tried to simplified position. But I made mistake because I was trying:

ser-ha=>b14

and then Popeye is showing like black starts but it does not work. I am wondering what is ser-ha=>b14 doing?

I figured out that I can test ser-hs#14 positions by reverting colors and mirroring position like this:

BeginProblem
Author Unknown
Origin Unknown
Forsyth 4r3/pp1k4/3b4/8/2pp4/5p2/PPPPPPPP/RSBQKBSR
Stipulation ser-a=>b14
Forsyth 4rQ2/pp1k4/3P4/2K5/1PSS4/8/P1PP1PPP/R1B2B1R
Option Intelligent MaxSolutions 10 Variation
EndProblem

I was hoping that I can use original positions if I list ser-ha=>b14 but it does not work.

Thanks for your help.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23058
(309) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 21:20]

@(307)
Olaf please check what you wrote. None of two cooks you listed are working in my problem (298). Bxe6 in the first and axb5 are impossible moves. Or am I missing something?
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23059
(310) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 21:24]

Sorry, I had the wrong position. The 3 upper pawns were shift left.
The right position is cooked in 11:
1. Sxf6 2. Sxd5 3. Sc3 4. d5 5. Bg4 6. Qd6 7. Kd7 8. Kc6 9. Kxc5 10. Kd4 11. Qc5 ; bxc3+ Qxc3
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23060
(311) Posted by Joost de Heer [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 21:43]

ser-ha=>bn: Black plays n moves, then white plays 1 move reaching the diagram.

By the way, intelligent mode and variations aren't needed for proofgames.

And you can use Jacobi (https://wismuth.com/jacobi/latest/solver.html) for partial testing.

Example:

option FirstToMove black
fors rsbqkbsr/pppppppp/8/1B6/8/8/6Q1/K7
stip ser-hs#7

This will solve the ser-hs#7 (and will discover cooks, I deliberately used a cooked example) but it'll take time.

To test schemes where in the final position, there's a black king on a3, I can use:

option FirstToMove black
fors rsbqkbsr/pppppppp/8/1B6/8/8/6Q1/K7
stip ser-a=>b7 pie bla ka3 addpieces
stip s#1

And it'll find the intention within milliseconds. But of course there is a cook with the black king on b3, which it'll find with:

option FirstToMove black
fors rsbqkbsr/pppppppp/8/1B6/8/8/6Q1/K7
stip ser-a=>b7 pie bla kb3 addpieces
stip s#1
 
 
(Read Only)pid=23062
(312) Posted by Dragan Stojnić [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 22:13]

I hope to cook from 304 now dont work:
correction of 237 ser hs#12(C?)
(= 11+16 )

If only it was problem...
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23063
(313) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 22:48]

cooked:
1. exf6 2. fxe5 3. Qxg5 4. Qf5 5. Ke7 6. Kd6 7. Kd5 8. e4 9. exd3 10. Ke4 11. Ke3 12. Qg5 ; Bg1+ Qxg1#
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23064
(314) Posted by Dragan Stojnić [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 00:29]

Maybe this help against both previous cooks ?

(= 11+16 )

ser hs#12?
(correction of 237)
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23066
(315) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 04:09]

@(311)
Joost, thanks for explanation how it works. This is a great help for partial testing of problems. Now the determination of moves is very easy to check. For example my latest attempt (ser-hs#13). The determination of moves is confirmed by Popeye:

BeginProblem
Author Unknown
Origin Unknown
Forsyth rsbqkbsr/pppppppp/5P2/2PP4/8/3B4/PP1K4/4R3
Stipulation ser-ha=>b13
Forsyth 1sb2bsr/1p1p1ppp/5p2/q1pP4/pk6/P2B4/1P1K4/4r3
Option MaxSolutions 10
EndProblem

Also it helps finding cooks. Brute force is too slow but if some final position is found for cook it's easy to check if it works by using this ser-ha=>b<# of moves> condition. This can be used for other stipulations too.

Yes, I know that 'Intelligent' and 'Variation' words are not needed. However I create input through my program for editing diagrams and if there is no error I do not remove options that are not needed.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23067
(316) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 13:59]

@(310) I am wondering if adding of wRd6 fixes this cook. It looks like now this cook is not possible. Here is the new position:

(= 9+16 )

ser-hs#13 (C?)
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23071
(317) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 16:08]

Cooked:
1. c6 2. e5 3. Qb6 4. Qxc5 5. Sxf6 6. Sxd5 7. Sc3 8. Ke7 9. Kxd6 10. Kd5 11. Kd4 12. d5 13. Bg4 ; bxc3+ Qxc3#
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23073
(318) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 16:50]

(= 8+16 )

ser-hs#13 (C?)
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23074
(319) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 18:36]

Cooked in 11:
1. a5 2. a4 3. d5 4. Ra6 5. Re6 6. Rxe1 7. Kd7 8. Kc6 9. Kxc5 10. Kb4 11. c5 12. Qa5 ; a3+ Kb3#
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23075
(320) Posted by Joost de Heer [Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 19:05]

@(319) For which diagram is that a cook? Can't be for (318) as d5 isn't possible.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=23076

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MatPlus.Net Forum General Construct the longest ser-x with a Black homebase