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MatPlus.Net Forum Competitions 9th FIDE World Cup in composing
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(21) Posted by Dmitri Turevski [Tuesday, Aug 3, 2021 09:28]

btw, is my translation precise enough?

Pretty much.
regional journal -> regional newspaper
*incomprehensible* -> "utter crap"
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(22) Posted by Peter Gvozdjak [Tuesday, Aug 3, 2021 14:26]

i always welcome discussion on compositions and exchange of opinions.
at the same time, i cannot accept such an offensive comment against the judge.
i am very much looking forward to see what kind of miracle that author submitted…
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(23) Posted by Marjan Kovačević [Tuesday, Aug 3, 2021 15:10]

@ Juraj
„Also, as an editor, I can hardly reprint the work without author's name from the preliminary award, so I have to wait for longer...”
Why to hurry to reproduce a preliminary award when the final one appears in a month (with possible changes)?

The two different comments were not contradicting. One was about the speed of the judge's work, and the other about quality of the awarded entries.
Being far from an expert in #3, I enjoyed analyzing the first two prizes (very different, but both least possible to be anticipated), and could understand the judges's delight about the first one. For most of other entries, I should know more about possible anticipations to make any statement.
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(24) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Friday, Aug 6, 2021 12:36]

Marjan, thank you for the opinion about two prizes. I will have a look at them.

As an editor I am usually not in a hurry. Rather, material usually have to wait. But once I have a look at some problem, sometimes I make notes and classify it into folders when interesting for further work etc. Without name - rather important element - I have to return to it to add the name, perhaps I have to reclassify it (as I am e.g. separately tracing Slovak compositions for website of our organization) and so on, so not having complete information at once complicates my process. Yes, I can make all work from the final award only and this is what I do when I see the final award first. But then if the preliminary award is subject to discussion, should I ignore it?

To conclude, the new approach of 9th WC complicates my life. It might be the same for others, but having some processes already set up, it makes me uncomfortable. Of course, if this becomes the prevailing approach of tourney organizers, I will have to adjust my approach. (Hopefully not.)
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(25) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Thursday, Aug 12, 2021 08:03]

Selfmate section.
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(26) Posted by Torsten Linß [Thursday, Aug 12, 2021 10:21]

There are no duals in the 5th prize.
Multiple choices by black on the mating move in a s# are *variations*.
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(27) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Thursday, Aug 12, 2021 21:10]

Maybe it is a problem of translation:
неоднозначности матовых финалов
Does it really mean duals?
Or rather "ambiguity of mate finals" ?
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(28) Posted by Peter Gvozdjak [Thursday, Aug 12, 2021 22:41]

the judge's comment on the 2nd prize clearly says of black dual on mating move - surely nothing lost in translation:
Жаль, что черная дуаль на матующем ходу в одном из вариантов и короткая угроза несколько портят впечатление от довольно хорошего, интересного замысла.
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(29) Posted by Joost de Heer [Friday, Aug 13, 2021 12:47]

Can you imagine a #2 judge saying 'It's a pity black has multiple defenses against the threat'?
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(30) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Friday, Aug 13, 2021 12:50]

Even Petkov has such a view about choice black mates in selfmates, though many consider it irrelevant.
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(31) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Friday, Aug 13, 2021 13:27]

This doesn't answer the question if the judge considers mating moves in the 5th prize as duals.
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(32) Posted by Joose Norri [Friday, Aug 13, 2021 17:37]

@ Joost: yes, this has been seen. When two black defences are answered with the same mate, this has been as a flaw, particularly if the black moves defend with differing strategy. But of course there are themes where exactly this aspect is required! (P1254508) Please ask an expert... (And there's such a thing as dualistic refutations, also considered a flaw by many. Not anymore closely related.)

But I digressed.

On to selfmates. I used to consider the black dual concept absurd; but look at Hauke's scheme in the thread below, 'finally a s#2 challenge'. If black's thematic mates were duplicated somewhere with a move 'c', somehow I wouldn't like to call it a variation, not even a fatal variation. Not necessarily a dual, but then a new term would have to be invented, I suppose.

I will give a practical example later in the evening or morning - not of this reciprocal change!
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(33) Posted by Joose Norri [Saturday, Aug 14, 2021 00:19]

Michel Caillaud, PAT A MAT 2000, 3rd Prize

(= 8+11 )


1.Ra3! (2.Qxg4+ Sxg4#) and now there is a black-white cycle of squares:

1...Sd2 2.Sc2+ Bxc2#; 1...Bc2 2.Qe3+ Sxe3#; 1...Se3 2.Sab3+ Bxb3#; 1...Bb3 2.Qd2+ Sxd2#. And please note especially that black's first and second moves form a separate cycle, and it is an important part of the theme.

Now it's easy to destroy the problem. Add a black 5,1-leaper on b7 and it mates on c2. The black cycle is still there, but only nominally; in a direct 3# a white cycle of second and third moves doesn't allow any dual mate either, and this is now an example of a s#2 with strong black thematic play, to my eye at least. I find it difficult to speak of a variation, even if one calls it a soul destroying variation. I would much prefer another term, be it dual if nothing else can be found. Perhaps someone can set such a scheme orthodoxically, I know a couple three movers.

So, upon noticing such things I began having doubts about what I took for granted for 25 years. I wonder if anyone else shares them. But my doubts apply only to very special cases, never to a problem like the 5th Prize in the World Cup.
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(34) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Saturday, Aug 14, 2021 07:17]

Thanks all for the fascinating and calm discussion about variants. I don’t know much about self-mates but the idea that the mating move can be one of a number of possibilities always remind me of the notion of “tolerated dual promotion”. Ideally we might not do it, and there are certainly problems with promotion mates which avoid it, but if it was deemed to cook a problem then we would lose so much design space it’s absurd.

I am not a fan of the the word “tolerated” - because tolerance can be grudging. To some, the promotion remains always a defect. I think that such folk are perhaps confused. Either the matrix has bK near to the promoting mater, in which case the mate can be unique, or it’s a long way away, in which case the promotion mate cannot be unique. It’s not a matter of constructional technique. I prefer the word “accepted”.

It’s perhaps a similar deal in selfmates. Michel Caillaud’s lovely s#2 shows a close-in situation where the black final choices become thematic. However many s#n matrices cannot possibly offer that kind of control and the composers would not try. It’s not where the interest in the problem lies. It’s inherent to the matrix - again not a matter of constructional technique. It’s therefore not a defect in the slightest, and it would be good if the judge can elaborate on his position on this point.
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(35) Posted by Mikhail Khramtsevich [Saturday, Aug 14, 2021 13:08]

По просьбе участников обсуждения выскажу свою позицию. Заранее извините, что могу это сделать только на русском языке. Если кто-то возьмется перевести удачно на английский, то буду заранее благодарен даже если это получится не совсем удачно.
S#n выгладит всегда выглядит наиболее привлекательнее и интереснее, если автор пытается заложить и реализовать свой замысел в рамках всего решения, начиная от первого хода белых и кончая последним матующим ходом черных. Многие составители при работе над своими задачами на обратный мат допускают, не являющуюся дефектом, множественность матового финала, обрезая содержание условно с S#4 до S#3,5. В обратных матах стратегического стиля в большинстве случаев матующий ход черных несет тактическую нагрузку (например: игра батареи, привлечение фигуры) и вплетается в содержание авторской игры и иногда вынужденно несет тематическую нагрузку. Не ходя далеко за примерами рассмотрим на задачах пока входящих в верхней пятерке из отмеченных в предварительном присуждении:
1 приз - автор объединил замысел игры в своей задачи в единый комплекс шестикратной игры белой батареи на втором ходу. Все варианты в итоге завершаются матующими ходами с игрой черной батареи. В данной ситуации матующий ход черных несет оттенок тематического характера, так как батарейная игра на матующем ходу подчеркивает общий замысел. Если бы автору удалось бы осуществить соответственную шестикратную игру батареи на матующем ходу, то он(матующий ход черных) автоматически становился бы абсолютно тематическим.
2 приз - в этой задаче неоднозначность матующего хода производит более негативный оттенок. Рассмотрим первых два объединяющих себя варианта. В них выражена тема аннигиляции белых пешек с целью подключения черной дальнобойной фигуры. Тема могла быть выражена еще глубже: аннигиляция белых пешек с целью подключения и прохождения по вскрытой линии черной дальнобойной фигуры для мата. Но тогда в дело вступит тактическая дуаль(имеется ввиду двойственность) неоднозначности матующего хода черных. Согласитесь, неоднозначность матового финала вносит легкую дисгармонию в однородность тактических моментов в этих двух похожих вариантах. Отсутствие дополнительного матующего хода позволило бы этим двум вариантам выглядеть более гармоничнее.
5 приз - автор реализовывал схему для осуществления своего замысла, где матующий ход черных вынужден был быть неоднозначным. Тем самым лишив его возможности нести тематический характер. В данном случае я имел виду, что введение тематичности и смысловой нагрузки в матующий ход черных повысило бы весомости в общий замысел задачи в конкуренции за более высокое отличие.
В заключении хотел бы сказать, что при опубликовании предварительных итогов я не ожидал что текст уже будет переведен. К сожалению я не владею английским языком, чтобы в должной мере детальнее и подробнее разъяснить свою точку зрения. Заранее приношу извинения. Михаил.
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(36) Posted by shankar ram [Sunday, Aug 15, 2021 02:28]

By Google (with a few edits by me):

At the request of the participants in the discussion, I will express my position. Sorry in advance that I can only do this in Russian. If someone undertakes to translate successfully into English, I will be grateful in advance, even if it does not turn out very well.
S # n looks always looks the most attractive and interesting if the author tries to lay down and implement his plan within the whole solution, starting from the first move of White and ending with the last mating move of Black. Many composers, when working on their selfmate problems, allow a non-defect multiplicity of the checkmate ending, conventionally cutting the content from S # 4 to S # 3.5. In selfmates of the strategic style, in most cases, Black's mating move carries a tactical load (for example: playing the battery, drawing a piece) and is woven into the content of the author's play and sometimes has to bear a thematic load. Without going too far into examples, consider the problems that are still in the top five of those noted in the preliminary award:
1 prize - the author has combined the idea of ​​the game in his task into a single complex of six-time play of the white battery on the second move. All variants eventually end with mating moves with the play of a black battery. In this situation, Black's mating move has a thematic flavour, since the battery play on the mating move emphasizes the general intention. If the author were able to carry out the corresponding six-fold play of the battery on the mating move, then the (Black's mating move) would automatically become absolutely thematic.
2nd prize - in this problem the ambiguity of the mating move produces a more negative connotation. Consider the first two options that combine themselves. They express the theme of annihilation of white pawns in order to connect a black long-range piece. The theme could be expressed even more deeply: the annihilation of white pawns with the aim of connecting and passing the black long-range piece along the revealed line for the mate. But then the tactical dual (meaning ambiguity) of the ambiguity of Black's mating move comes into play. Agree, the ambiguity of the matte finale introduces a slight disharmony in the homogeneity of tactical moments in these two similar variants. The absence of an additional matting move would allow these two options to look more harmonious.
5th prize - the author implemented a scheme to implement his plan, where Black's mating move had to be ambiguous. Thus, depriving him of the opportunity to carry a thematic character. In this case, I meant that the introduction of thematic and semantic load into Black's mating move would increase the weight of the overall concept of the problem in competition for a higher difference.
In conclusion, I would like to say that when publishing the preliminary results, I did not expect that the text would already be translated. Unfortunately, I do not speak English in order to explain my point of view in more detail. I apologize in advance.
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(37) Posted by Neal Turner [Sunday, Aug 15, 2021 15:50]

I don't always agree with Mr Petkov, but on this point I do.
Call them what you like - duals, variations - but having multiple mating moves in a selfmate is sloppy and is certainly a flaw which any judge would be correct to call out.
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(38) Posted by shankar ram [Sunday, Aug 15, 2021 16:18]

A 26 post MPF thread on this subject from 2006:
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(39) Posted by Joose Norri [Sunday, Aug 15, 2021 17:34]

Look at Avner's problem in post nr. 13 in that thread from 2006. It shows perfectly what I meant, and at the risk of repeating myself, if there was an alternative mate in one of the four variations, I would prefer to call it something else than a variation.
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(40) Posted by Joose Norri [Sunday, Aug 15, 2021 17:59]

A compound word often is not the sum of the parts. From the sunflower there is some way to the sun. I hope this is not a red herring.

So, a 'black dual' doesn't imply a dual, if it is so agreed. But introducing such a new term, close to one that the Old Greeks knew, would cause misunderstanding...
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MatPlus.Net Forum Competitions 9th FIDE World Cup in composing