|(1) Posted by Aleksey Oganesjan [Friday, Mar 5, 2021 08:25]|
Quick Composing TT-254 (#2) C. 08-04-2021
Editorial board of international web project "SuperProblem" (http://superproblem.ru/index-en.html) announces a quick composing thematic tourney for twomovers.
Awards will be published on the website http://superproblem.ru
View the announcement on the link http://superproblem.ru/htm/announcements/our_tourneys-2021.html#TT-254
|(2) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Saturday, Mar 6, 2021 19:10]|
"Defence motive" is a more expressive english term than 'defennsive moment'
|(3) Posted by Aleksey Oganesjan [Sunday, Mar 7, 2021 10:35]|
'Defensive motive' is a term from 'Encyclopedia' by Velimirovic and Valtonen.
|(4) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Monday, Mar 8, 2021 02:31]|
"Defensive motive" is more accurate of course
|(5) Posted by Joost de Heer [Monday, Mar 8, 2021 11:35]|
Mlynka theme is a cyclic change between defensive motives. Is there also a theme name for cyclic change between defensive weaknesses?
|(6) Posted by Joose Norri [Monday, Mar 8, 2021 15:59]|
Velimirovic / Valtonen:
Kinnunen theme: A reciprocal change of harmful and advantageous defensive motifs in variations.
Jönsson 1 Theme: A cyclic change of harmful and advantageous defensive motifs in variations.
Both are one phase themes, so ignore setplays / tries. (Also change 'motif' into 'motive / harmful effect', I think.)
But that doesn't answer your question.
|(7) Posted by Viktoras Paliulionis [Monday, Mar 8, 2021 17:35]|
Is there a difference between the terms "motive" and "motif"? In the Encyclopedia, both terms are used.
|(8) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Tuesday, Mar 9, 2021 05:26]|
In English these words have very different meanings. Motive is purpose, while motif is theme. They are so distinct that it never crossed my mind that they derive from the same root. I would have thoughtlessly presumed that the same distinction applies in compositions.
|(9) Posted by Joose Norri [Tuesday, Mar 9, 2021 07:22]|
The confusion mainly stems from the fact that in many languages they are one and the same word, or rather spelled identically. There was an article by Milan in MatPlus, I believe Cyclic Motives was the title, in which he mentioned that only when writing had he become conscious of the difference, thanks to John Rice. A short item appeared also in The Problemist ca. 6-10 years ago, also by John I think.
This has had some awkward consequences. The three move theme in the 10th WCCT read originally "...the black defensive motif and the white response are of the same tactical nature. (...)" It's still on the WFCC site. In the award booklet it is "motive". I don't remember at which point this was changed. I wrote in our Finnish Tehtäväniekka that to my mind the thematicity of e.g. the winner by Kuzovkov is debatable.
|(10) Posted by Aleksey Oganesjan [Tuesday, Mar 9, 2021 07:36]|
Hm, it's very interesting and somewhat strange... There is even an article "Motif (chess composition)" in Wikipedia:
Wiki's articles with another meanings of "motif" are related to the art and to the music.
And what does the Wikipedia say about "motive"? It is related only to a criminal law.
Is it true?
|(11) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Tuesday, Mar 9, 2021 09:58]|
Since I love confusion and wordplay, I would object to Andrew's
post: "My motive (reason - not purpose) to use this motif
(pattern - not effect) in my composition..." :-)
But I still learn English, since 50 years :-)
Indeed, any German would translate with "motif" with "Motiv".
Time for good old Aristoteles...
|(12) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Tuesday, Mar 9, 2021 10:57]|
I think the distinctions you are trying to make are too narrow, Hauke. There is a cloud of uncertainty round any word in English, and the only ground rule is to avoid using the same inexact term more than once in a row. Varying the term indicates the implicit imprecision. If it matters, I said “purpose” for motive because I wanted to emphasise the intensionality. It’s true that motive often refers to crime, and in classic detective fiction is linked with means and opportunity. Motif meant “theme” but given that “motif” is a loose term compared to themes which are very specific these days, maybe one should stick with motif. “Pattern” can suggest a structural template as well as a repeated decoration, that the template can create. Ow, written English is too hard.
|(13) Posted by Viktoras Paliulionis [Tuesday, Mar 9, 2021 13:14]|
There is another similar word - motivation. For example, in helpmates there is a theme called "changed motivation". But I'm not sure if this name is correct.
As far as I understand it, motive is a general word, motif is special term used in chess composition, as "a synonym for a disadvantageous (positive, defensive) and/or advantageous (negative, harmful) effect of a move" (see Encyclopedia).
No more posts
MatPlus.Net Forum Competitions Quick Composing TT-254 (#2) C. 08-04-2021