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| | Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | (41) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 20:01] |
Good idea, let return FIDE Album to Zagreb. We can print it faster and cheaper. It will be nice, 20 years after Nenad Petrovic's death.
Of course, it is not possible. I just want to mention that 20 years passed away and I am preparing some article about Nenad Petrovic's work.
And 20 years after his death "PCCC is no more a part of FIDE".
| | | (42) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 20:08]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-25] |
Jacques, finally I fully agree with you. The problems Miodrag described are real but it's up to the PCCC community to solve it, FIDE or no FIDE.
| | | (43) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 20:24] |
QUOTE
Good idea, let return FIDE Album to Zagreb. We can print it faster and cheaper.
Are you sure you could provide the same quality(professional layout, high-quality translation, etc)? Would I be able to pay for it without high banking fees?
| | | (44) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 20:46] |
Everything is so simple and reasonable when Jacques Rotenberg points out:
... we have a PCCC, with many many good things, and with many things that can be thought to be better.
If FIDE wants more relationship with PCCC, it is very easy, there is a president to speak with.
I am sure that quality of printing isn't problem. I was joking about returning Album to Zagreb, it is not possible, as I know, because the "publishing property" of Album belongs to Blondel & elinghoven (Feenschach & Phenix), sorry if I am wrong, I am realy tired and can't remember it now.
| | | (45) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 21:42] |
Jacques wrote:
QUOTE
Uri Avner also is a great solver and composer.
I completely agree about this statement. Uri is great problemist and my good friend. I did not write my post to critic him and his work. However if FIDE decided to cut off PCCC and asign Andrey as a chairman of "Chess Composition Project" that's democratic too.
We can either completely separate from FIDE or try to work with them to reorganize ourselves. I am voting for second option. I do not think that we have enough professionals to maintain PCCC without support from the FIDE.
| | | (46) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 00:43]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [09-03-26] |
"....However if FIDE decided to cut off PCCC and asign Andrey as a chairman of "Chess Composition Project" that's democratic too. ...."
Are you kidding Miodrag ??
What is democracy about ??
In PCCC every active country in chess problem is represented, every problemist can have his place in it.
PCCC is truly representative of our world.
And what about FIDE? They can choose "democraticly" for the problemists something ??
| | | (47) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 01:53]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [09-03-27] |
QUOTE
We can either completely separate from FIDE or try to work with them to reorganize ourselves.
To me, the only option is to completely separate from FIDE. They are incompetent and even made Selivanov now a victim of their machinery. Do we want for chess composition the same [..] that was done on OTB chess some years ago? [..] I don't! That's what I already said a while ago: Either [the FIDE politics change], or we must leave FIDE. There is no other way. [..]
Horst M. wrote me on December 15th 2008, when I asked the Deutscher Schachbund how to leave FIDE, there's no personal membership:
QUOTE
Sehr geehrter Herr Hornecker,
als Mitglied in einem deutschen Schachverein sind Sie auch indirekt im DSB Mitglied. Der DSB wiederum ist als Organisation (nicht alle Einzelmitglieder) der FIDE beigetreten. Es gibt also keine Einzelmitgliedschaft in der FIDE.
So just to make it clear: I am not member of the FIDE at all! I am not responsible for their [mistakes about rules on] chess! The Deutscher Schachbund is member of the FIDE, and it's bad enough that they do everything the FIDE tells them with doping controls and changing time controls etc. Do we want such for PCCC, too? Do we want to sacrifice our freedom just to be member of an organisation that brings out rules every few months that destroy chess more and more? Or do we want to be free and make rules ourself?
-----
PS: With Selivanov being Vice President, the statements above lose their validity in great parts. I only leave it for reasons of keeping the discussion, but note that I will want to re-estimate them due to missing information. It seems not the whole FIDE is corrupted so we may have a chance of cooperation if Selivanov's influence is big enough!
-----
PPS, March 27th: Removed possible insults, hopefully keeping the original sense. MV is right, we should cool down.
| | | (48) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 07:26] |
Jacques wrote:
QUOTE
In PCCC every active country in chess problem is represented, every problemist can have his place in it.
PCCC is truly representative of our world.
This is not the true statement. I did not attend last congress but I think in Netherland I know that several countries were not allowed to vote remotely. Just because they did not have enough money to send a delegate to the congress it does not mean that it's democracy not to allow them to vote remotely. Is it democracy to cancel PCCC congress in Bulgaria on your own without any explanations? I know that Slovakian problemists bought the tickets to attend meeting in Bulgaria (Varna). However meeting has been canceled without any explanations. I know that when I asked Marjan (Serbian delegate) and that he did not know to explain me why PCCC canceled meeting in Bulgaria? Do not tell me that it's democracy to change the will of the majority of delegates.
I will never forgot that when there was a PCCC meeting in Bratislava in 1993 I had to compete under FIDE name because PCCC disallowed us to compete under Yugoslavian flag. They were claiming that they were following UN embargo against Yugoslavia. That's not a democracy. That's introducing a politics in PCCC. At the same time when USA and other western countries were bombin Belgrade and Serbia without UN decision that was democratic and there was no reason to do anything about this. Nobody said USA, France, Germany should not participate at PCCC congress under their country names. I hate to write about politics at this forum but unfortunatelly it's PCCC that introduced politics in chess problems (not me). And I bet that PCCC will be the first organization that will accept Kosovo as a member even if it's not country at all. In my opinion politic should be eliminated from the chess problems world completely.
I may be wrong about FIDE since I did not follow up on their work too much. However I am sure that there are representatives from different countries within FIDE and somebody voted for all decisions that they made. It's easy just to throw a rocks at the FIDE but comparing with other sports FIDE is not so bad.
| | | (49) Posted by Kevin Begley [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 07:47] |
In this atmosphere, I'm afraid how a few might judge the following problem:
A. Kuznetsov, Mir Shakhmat, 1996
 (= 11+15 )
#1
Seriously though, if PCCC cuts the cord, is there no danger we lose our grounding, and float away from chess?
Will we still have joke problems based on the literal interpretation of FIDE's rulebook -- or will we rewrite the chess rules too?
FIDE says PCCC is already "autonomous." So, why cry for our freedom?
Somebody suggests we formally break from FIDE because of their current president. If we want to protest this character, there are other means -- we needn't suddenly take ourselves hostage.
I've seen some claim that the album would be cheaper/printed better. Is this really a function of FIDE? Do we not have the autonomy to make such improvements?
I see plenty of torches dancing around FIDE's imaginary carcass -- which all makes sense, of course, on some level, but I am no primitive anthropologist.
If we (problemists) have something to gain from independence, why does this reason remain unstated?
Either dot the i, or surrender the conch.
| | | (50) Posted by Steven Dowd [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 09:10] |
Haven't our postal chess friends lived for many years independent of FIDE, and are relatively happy?
Aren't we more similar to them (a lot of amateurs and a lot of volunteers doing the work)?
Just a thought - I am not a political animal.
| | | (51) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 09:36] |
QUOTE
This is not the true statement. I did not attend last congress but I think in Netherland I know that several countries were not allowed to vote remotely. Just because they did not have enough money to send a delegate to the congress it does not mean that it's democracy not to allow them to vote remotely.
I am really surprised, Misha, by such a statement. The reason why the three countries were not allowed in Wageningen to nominate proxies is clearly stated in the minutes of meeting, please refer to http://www.saunalahti.fi/~stniekat/pccc/pccc06mins.doc Of course, it is not a coincidence that the attempt was made in the very same year that PCCC elections were scheduled...
QUOTE
I will never forgot that when there was a PCCC meeting in Bratislava in 1993 I had to compete under FIDE name because PCCC disallowed us to compete under Yugoslavian flag. They were claiming that they were following UN embargo against Yugoslavia. That's not a democracy.
Politics is not my strong point (in fact, I cannot care less), but again your statement, even if emotionally fully understandable, is misleading in the sense that this did not happen only in our community. As you may recall, in the summer Olympics in Barcelona 1992, "The break-up of SFR Yugoslavia led to the Olympic debuts of Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Due to United Nations sanctions, FR Yugoslavian athletes were not allowed to participate with their own team. However, individual athletes could compete under the Olympic flag as Independent Olympic Participants". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Summer_Olympics
Coming back to the original subject, it seems that meanwhile certain (all?) delegates received an email from Andrey that, as we are aware (sic), the PCCC has been annihilated by FIDE, and a new organisation has to be established. It is accompanied by a question who we consider to be the right person to function as the president of this organisation. I will refrain myself of any productive comments, but I will only say "just my two cents". There will be, of course, an official announcement by PCCC in the website, which I am sure will clear up all this (unexpected?) mess.
PS after reading Steven's post: you're right, Steven, the example of the Correspondence Chess is called up in the interim answer of the PCCC Presidium to the above mentioned email.
| | | (52) Posted by Guy Sobrecases [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 10:39] |
All that is really interesting.
What role can play internet in a coup?
Here, a coup consists of the infiltration by Email of a small, but critical, segment of the PCCC apparatus, which is then used to displace the Praesidium from its control of the remainder.
At first glance, it seems that a coup can be favoured by internet, as the infiltration can be done faster and better than in the "old times".
But the strong reaction of some problemists, and probably the fast coming information from the PCCC to his members, via on his own website and Emails, show that a coup is nowadays perhaps more difficult to succeed than few years ago.
| | | (53) Posted by Frank Richter [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 11:12] |
As far as I remember the question was already discussed in Rhodos (2007). So it could not be really a surprise - and what did the PCCC in the last months to avoid the cancellation of the commission? Or is it equal to be a permanent commission or a special project?
For most of us there will be no difference in future, I think. We will build chess problems, take part in competitions, read or make journals etc. But some formal facts may change, f.i. the status of our national confederation as a regular member of the German Chess Association.
In generally, any change may be a chance. So why not use ist for make some things better than now?
| | | (54) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 11:18] |
QUOTE
Somebody suggests we formally break from FIDE because of their current president. If we want to protest this character, there are other means -- we needn't suddenly take ourselves hostage.
I do not know if it helps but here is it anyway, the old thread:
http://www.milanvel.net/mp/snapshot/rescbody.php?px=1222338268&fid=gen&tid=295
| | | (55) Posted by Paz Einat [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 16:30]; edited by Paz Einat [09-03-26] |
In continuation to Harry's comments, I received the following forwarded email from Andrey Selivanov and I guess many other problemists received it:
"Dear Friends,
The PCCC is considered as an international organisation affiliated to FIDE; along like the Commonwealth Chess Association, Arab Chess Union etc ... All IOs are independently run from FIDE and their events are recognised by FIDE and which FIDE titles are awarded.
In the re-structure of Commissions and Committees, it was decided that the PCCC continue run its own affairs as it has been. FIDE will consider an application for budget from the PCCC and FIDE's Adviser to Chess Compositions will be our liaison. Henceforth, future reports etc should be done through our FIDE Adviser. His role will be the liaison and only monitoring the activities of PCCC as well as ensure the FIDE budget, where allocated, would be appropriately spent.
Regards,
Ignatius Leong
FIDE General Secretary"
Now, Harry says that in an email he received from Andrey Selivanov the following was said:
"the PCCC has been annihilated by FIDE, and a new organisation has to be established."
This is clearly not at all what Ignatius Leong is saying!
The continuation "who we consider to be the right person to function as the president of this organisation" is rather annoying... I'll be happy to read the full email to see what all this is about
| | | (56) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 17:49] |
I did not want to quote it here, but it's no secret or whatever, since from what I can see, all delegates have received it. So, here you are:
QUOTE
I would like to know your opinion about the decisions that should be made by chess composers and solvers after the FIDE decision to annihilate the commission. How should the work be correctly organized now to preserve the authority and to further develop chess composition? Legally PCCC and its elective bodies do not exist any more. It is necessary to define the structure of a new organization and its effective bodies. Of course it should be done in the same democratic way as before. Who is in your opinion a real candidate for the President nomination of a new organization? As the FIDE advisor on the chess composition special project I am ready to help governing bodies of the new organization.
I also inform you that FIDE provides 7 000 Euro from its budget for the chess composition this year.
| | | (57) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 19:26]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-26] |
Harry, whom do you quote? Andrey Selivanov?
| | | (58) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 20:00]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [09-03-26] |
I read now, Andrey Selivanov is Vice President of the FIDE! This is our chance! Let him become the president of the FIDE and we may see a glorious new age of chess composition! In fact, I'd like him to tell us what power exactly he has in the FIDE, and if this opens up possibilities for us to veto against bad decisions, for example.
| | | (59) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 20:26] |
Without comments on Harry's remark.
"For "Ex-members of Permanent Commission for Chess Compositions"
"Dear Colleagues in Chess,
As you may well be aware, at the instance of the FIDE President two years
ago, a study on the re-structure of Commissions was conducted. Reasons
were
already explained in the Agenda and the Minutes of the FIDE Executive
Board
2007 and the FIDE Congress 2008 both of which are published on the FIDE
website. The Presidential Board Meeting in Istanbul held on 6th March 2009
confirmed all the changes, implementations and appointments of new
Chairpersons and members of the re-structured Commissions.
On behalf of the FIDE President and FIDE, we thank ALL of you for the
enormous amount of work you have contributed over the past several years.
We
hope that for those who have not been re-appointed, you may continue to
contribute by correspondence and/or attend meetings of the Commissions. We
will constantly monitor the work of those appointed as well as take into
consideration of those who contribute even though they are not members.
Once again, Thank You, and wishing you all the best in your future chess
endeavours.
Regards,
Ignatius Leong
FIDE General Secretary
| | | (60) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 20:33] |
This letter from Ignatius Leong has been directed members of Presidium PSSS (Uri Avner, Hanny Harkola, Marko Klasins, Kijel Widlert)
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