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| (21) Posted by Georgy Evseev [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 13:55] |
Please, at least read the following document before jumping to any conclusions
http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2008/79th_fide_congress/annex_8_2008.pdf
It is accessible from materials of last FIDE Congress (http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/3362-general-assembly-agenda)
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| (22) Posted by Kevin Begley [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 14:14] |
Miodrag,
Seems I was less clear than I had hoped...My point was that if we break off from FIDE, then currently titled FM / IM / GM composers & solvers should immediately be granted an equivallent title (in the same discipline) under the PCCC, and any album points toward such titles should remain intact. If PCCC should escape the FIDE compound, I am saying we take the titles too, such that your FIDE GM titles remain intact (and hopefully, any future title of GM awarded by PCCC will require some equitable achievement).
ps:
Hats off to you, of course, for doubling-up on GM titles... of course, if I had two, and you had none... :-)
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| (23) Posted by Neal Turner [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 15:16]; edited by Neal Turner [09-03-24] |
Referring to the document that Georgy cites, paragragh X seems to say that FIDE accepts the PCCC as an independent body for problem chess, and because of this there is no need for a seperate FIDE commission for chess composition.
So this FIDE commission will be dropped and replaced with a 'project' whose task would be to 'coordinate' with the PCCC.
And this within a general review of all the FIDE commissions.
So I suppose the issue to be tackled is how the tasks of the defunct FIDE commission (whatever they were?) will handled in future.
(Also this document implies that the PCCC, as an independent body, has never been part of FIDE.)
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| (24) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 15:34] |
The changes that appeared are not my initiative. This decision was taken under the influence of circumstances. When the Regulations of PCCC were analyzed by FIDE it appeared that they don’t correspond to FIDE Regulations in many parts. Several years ago I warned PCCC delegates about it. At that time it was said word for word “FIDE has bad Regulations, it is FIDE`s Regulations that must adapted”. Now the whole system of Chess Composition must be renewed. A new independent organization must be created on the basis of PCCC. It should enter FIDE as the associate member. The system of title awarding will be saved in this case. My task is to provide the connection of the organization of chess composition (today it is PCCC) with FIDE. And the task of the President of the organization of chess composition, who will be elected in a usual democratic way, to lead the organization and cooperate with me. Only together without any ambitions we will achieve success.
I consider that decisions about titles awarding must be made by the professional organization of chess composers, but it is FIDE President who must sign certificates. Then the attitude to composers and solvers will be changed in a positive way thanks to FIDE authority in the world and great power.
At the moment I am preparing the set of proposals that will be announced in the near future. I rely on the initiative of everybody who loves chess composition and on support for the proposals about chess composition development.
Andrey Selivanov
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| (25) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 16:07] |
After reading the document kindly referred to by Georgy I have got the similar impression to that of Neal, namely that FIDE has recognized de facto independence of PCCC (based on the study of the document submitted by PCCC representatives to FIDE on FIDE request) and no longer treats it as its own commission. I do not understand then the following Andrey's sentences:
"Now the whole system of Chess Composition must be renewed. A new independent organization must be created on the basis of PCCC. It should enter FIDE as the associate member. The system of title awarding will be saved in this case. My task is to provide the connection of the organization of chess composition (today it is PCCC) with FIDE."
Why should the new organization be set up in the first place? We have PCCC, with its pluses and minuses, but working. It represents the vast majority of chess composers via its members and national organizations they are coming from. PCCC has its statutes, way of work and results and while many of us have voiced some disagreement with various results, overall PCCC's competence to handle chess composition matters can be hardly questioned.
I am sure it is possible to elaborate the arguments or explain the issues more deeply.
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| (26) Posted by Neal Turner [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 17:32] |
In paragraph 2.2.3 - Objectives of each Project - the document states that:
"The Project Manager shall coordinate with the Permanent Commission For Chess Composition and advise the PB on policies and relationship matters regarding Composition Chess"
All rather vague, but somehow it doesn't sound like a call to renew the whole system of chess composition and replace the PCCC with a new organisation!
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| (27) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 17:33]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-24] |
Relevant parts from the FIDE document(it's minutes from November 2008 meeting in Dresden, not the last one in Turkey):
(page 1) "3- We did receive a document from the Permanent Commission for Chess Composition. This document confirms that Fide does not need a Commission on Composition Chess. See my arguments in the proposal."
(page 3) "2.1- The Commissions and Committees to maintain are the following: ....Composition Chess Commission ...."
(page 6) "X- Chess Composition Commission. In our first draft, we proposed that the duties of the CCC should be carried out as a special project under the responsibility of a project manager. During the discussions in the PB meeting of Mexico, it came out that it should be maintained. His Chairman was asked to draft a proposal regarding membership and duties of this Commission. We received recently a document from the “Permanent Commission for Chess Composition” which describes the duties and activities of this commission. When reading this document, it seems that this Commission is independent of Fide, functioning autonomously like the Organisation responsible for Correspondence Chess. In this case, of course, Fide does not need a Commission in charge of the activities of Composition Chess. What it needs is somebody within Fide to coordinate with the “Permanent Commission for Chess Composition”. Our initial proposal to dissolve the Fide Commission for Chess Composition and transform it as a special project was adequate."
(page 8) "V- Composition Chess. a- The Project Manager shall coordinate with the “Permanent Commission for Chess Composition” and advise the PB on policies and relationship matters regarding Composition Chess.
b- The Project Manager shall prepare documents and material needed in his field of competence and make recommendations to the GA, the EB or the PB, after consultation with the PB Member concerned."
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| (28) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 18:04]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-24] |
I think it's now up to PCCC member countries to decide to which degree they want to cooperate with FIDE. Reading between lines of Andrey's post, it seems FIDE would want something in return for titles and money.
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| (29) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 18:39]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-24] |
Harry: "What is all this thread about?"
I don't see anything wrong about speculation. I partly created this topic for exactly that reason. This is not an official PCCC forum. It's not against the rules to share an opinion, does not matter how speculative it is. If you or any PCCC official wants to avoid confusion and provide some hard facts, there are lot of places for it, including PCCC official website(this topic is fine too).
It's gonna be fun to watch how relations between PCCC and FIDE will unwind. I have my popcorn ready. :-)
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| (30) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 18:56] |
It is good to hear from Andrey Selivanov that democratic way will be obeyed in the future. Sorry, but the last decissions about PCCC and special projects are just interventions from FIDE and from Kirsan Ilyumzhinov. Something simmilar happened in Croatia 2 years ago, when our Chess Federation, our chessplayers and managers, annihilated the Board for Problem Chess. They made decissions about our destiny: we have to pay them special membership or we don't exist for them :-) But it was impossible to compeete without Chess Federation, CF was a member of PCCC, not our chessproblem associations or our chessproblem board.
It will be nice to hear from Andrey Selivanov some better news about the destiny of our international organization.
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| (31) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 18:57]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [09-03-24] |
I got semi-official information that on the PCCC meeting next week the issue of the FIDE decision will be discussed and the PCCC website will be updated accordingly afterwards.
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| (32) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 20:55] |
Very good! If you find something more, please inform us. It is good that 'ordinary problemists' get the informations (official or semi-official
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| (33) Posted by Paz Einat [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 22:54] |
Vladimir, you qoute from the minutes:
"(page 1) "3- We did receive a document from the Permanent Commission for Chess Composition. This document confirms that Fide does not need a Commission on Composition Chess. See my arguments in the proposal."
Who is saying this?
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| (34) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 23:38] |
Paz: here is the link to the full agenda (http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2008/79th_fide_congress/general_assembly_agenda_november_20.pdf). It references annex 8(the one Georgey provided link to) as follows:
(on page 3) 3.7. Restructuring of Committees and Commissions.
General Secretary Ignatius Leong and Verification Commission Chairman Lakhdar Mazouz to report.
Annex 8
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| (35) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 16:19] |
@ Vladimir & Harry & etc. - Speculation and jumping to
conclusions is what the Internet is about. I would
even say without some gratuituous conspiracy theories,
ad hominem arguments and borrowed 4chan memes, MatPlusForum
will never become a respected BBS.
Just kidding.
Hauke
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| (36) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 17:07] |
I saw here a lot of negative comments. However I think that this reorganization by FIDE may be a good change for problemists. As a great solver and composer I am sure that Andrey will do everything best for problemists. I think that we are to skeptic but knowing him personally I hope that we are all going to see some improvements very soon. In my opinion there are several areas where we can expect significant improvements:
1) FIDE Album. As we all know FIDE Album is always late. There are no any contracts between PCCC and publisher. So there are no any deadlines for printing it. I know that Andrey is supporting an idea that PCCC signs a contract with a publisher where there is a strict deadline for publishing (from the date of completion of all awards). I strongly support this idea. Right now there are no any obligations by publisher.
2) Official PCCC site – Currently our official PCCC site is updated couple of times in a few months. Also it does contain a lot of incorrect information. Even when I point out on some incorrect information it’s not mandatory by administrator to fix it. For example I pointed out to Administrator that Milan Velimirovic and Marjan Kovacevic are from Serbia and not from Yugoslavia (this country does not exists) as it’s listed on the official PCCC site. However even after couple of years this information is still wrong. I think that official PCCC site is very important for problemists and that it should be updated more often. I know that Andrey has a lot of ideas for improving this. I think that part of the money that FIDE allocated for “Chess Problem Project” should be used to improve PCCC site and pay somebody to maintain site professionally. Actually, last couple of years I first go to Andrey’s site for information since it’s updated more often.
3) I know that Andrey organizes on a regular basis strong tournaments (solving and composing).
He is proven as a very dedicated person to chess problems and I think we should all give him our support.
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| (37) Posted by Jean-Marc Loustau [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 17:38]; edited by Jean-Marc Loustau [09-03-25] |
Miodrag
About your 1st point, you show that you don’t know how things are going with Fide albums. For several albums now, the delay is almost never the fault of the publisher, because the publisher cannot publish anything if he has no material to publish. For example today, about the fide album 2001-2003, as far as I know, Denis Blondel has received almost no section to publish, even if the sections are already judged for several months! And as a friend of Denis I can say that I have seen several times in the past the album ready only some months after he received the complete material, i.e. sheet of papers of problems which still must be checked (several times he found cooks or duals) and of course all the work to put this material in good form, indexes and so on. The publisher is the last part on the critical way of the "project album Fide”, and if you have already managed projects you should know that the delay in each task of the critical way implies a delay on the whole project. If you want to reduce the delay for the album Fide, the publisher today is not weak point!
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| (38) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 18:15]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-25] |
I'd second Jean-Marc's opinion that delays are not always the publisher's fault. If you read minutes from the last PCCC meeting, retro results were not yet reported to Bernd and Denis. Bernd's promise to publish it by summer 2009 leaves them only 6-8 months to prepare Album for publication. That's not long at all considering the amount of work required.
The last several albums were of the highest quality. I'd rather wait a little longer to get the high-quality result instead of rushed publication filled with errors and misprints.
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| (39) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 18:52] |
Well, there is some problem with the whole process. There should be some deadlines and responsibility for everyone involved in the process of produing album. I know that FIDE Album printing has been moved from Zagreb (Croatia) with an explanatino that the production of album should be faster. However, since than all the albums were published with a bigger delay. I agree, quaility is better now although part of that is due to technology inovations that happened in the mean time. Yes, I know there are more problems nowdays than before. However for me still there is no reasonable explanation why there are no contracts. Also I know that originally it's been promissed that the price of FIDE ALBUM will be I think something like 50 german marks (prior to introducig euro). Now the price is I think 75E what is about 150 former german marks. I think that different publisher should be competing amoung themselves and than whoever offers better price (of course without decreasing of quality) he should be selected to publish album. Of course everything should be done with some signed contracts.
Also, although the quaility of FIDE ALBUM is very high I still think that it could be improved. There is no reason that everything is printed in three languages. There could be English, French, German, Russian and some other editions. There is no reason to have more than 50 extra pages.
Also, in my opinion the section with a definition of themes should be removed. That could be separate edition if someone is interested. The reason why it shold be removed is that some themes are even defined incorrectly. If I remember good there used to be a subcommission of PCCC responsible for standardization of themes. They could not agree among themsevf and they could not come up with a standard definitions. So I am wondering who is the authority to decide what is the theme name and definition? There are lot of themes that are named differently amoung different countries. It's not fair that publisher decides what is the theme definition.
For example in FIDE ALBUMS you can find formal themes where the white move is counted as the same move even if departure square of the white piece is different (for example wQa1->b2 and wQb1->b2). To me this does not make sense. When I started composing problems (30+ years ago) I've been thought that it's a different move. Who and when decided that it's the same move?
Once again I thing that ther are lot of things that should be changed in organization of PCCC. I know that Marjan Kovacevic was submitting for several years proposal to improve WCCT competitions. Hi is an official delegate of Serbia. For 2-3 years his proposal did not come on agenda at all. It's been alwyas removed from agenda with an explanation that there is no time to consider it. I am sure that he can give more details about this. For me it's bad organization of PCCC.
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| (40) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 19:40]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [09-03-25] |
Miograd,
You wrote
"...As a great solver and composer I am sure that Andrey will..."
You are also a great solver and composer.
Uri Avner also is a great solver and composer.
This does not mean anything here.
The point is that you have a PCCC, with many many good things, and with many things that can be thought to be better.
The point is that you have there free debates, free elections, good will in general from everybody.
Uri Avner was elected, a praesidium was elected.
Andrey Selivanov was not.
Where does this sudden will to break all down come from ? Is it really serious ??
All that story looks like a bad joke.
If FIDE wants more relationship with PCCC, it is very easy, there is a president to speak with.
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