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MatPlus.Net Forum General PCCC is no more a part of FIDE
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(1) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 16:58]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-22]

PCCC is no more a part of FIDE

PCCC has been downgraded to a "special project" under FIDE at the last meeting in Turkey on March 5-8, 2009. Well, actually PCCC was abolished and the new "Chess Compositions" project was created instead. PCCC became independent, but is still an associated member of FIDE according to Andrey Selivanov who broke the story. Andrey became the head of the "Chess Compositions" project. He described his role as the new chief "to promote chess composition and communicate with PCCC". He even got a 7000Euro budget in 2009.

How this change would affect PCCC? I guess not much, de facto PCCC was pretty independent from FIDE for a long time. It's more like de jure divorce. I am wondering if FIDE would still allow to use its name on FIDE albums.

Andrey's announcement (in Russian)
New FIDE structure
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(2) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 20:38]; edited by Siegfried Hornecker [09-03-27]

Finally! This is what I proposed a while ago and now it is done!

Ok, to not just spam here, I'll add a few things why this is good for us and why it may be bad for us:

[insults against Ilyumzhinov and opinions about FIDE removed before MV has to. SH, 27th March] we are officially the good guys, great artists, a multinational - no, a worldwide - organisation with the main objective to popularise chess composition. It may be necessary to propagate foundings of national organisations where those not already exist and make them members of the PCCC but we never shall forget to help them in being educated. We may even found some organisation for the translation of public domain books. There is a project to translate "Das Indische Problem" into english already but it's only a few people and it seems to have stopped, sadly.

Talking about Deutscher Schachbund, we come to the bad side:
With the FIDE going away, will national federations still be regarded "gemeinnützige" or non-profit organisations or will we have to fight for that status again? And how about money from national ministrys? They wanted to give a few hundred Euro for Die Schwalbe, I think, but now we also may have to fight for this again etc. We must understand that we are still very limited by money and that by our independence we may no longer receive money by the FIDE from a certain point. So we always have to be careful not to become financially busted by wrong decisions. Therefor I propose some kind of security, maybe from payments of a certain sum an open discussion if we want to do this at all. Money, sooner or later, will become our biggest issue.
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(3) Posted by [Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 21:35]

How would it affect the PCCC?

Well ... I remember those interesting 10 minutes at Wageningen when a few 'proxy delegates' were denied such status and shown the door, and where it was argued that PCCC statues were faulty because they did not allow such arrangements, when FIDE allowed them.

I hope the next meeting won't be equally interesting.
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(4) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 22:49]

Big issue remains with FIDE titles and ratings both in solving and composition. Would FIDE recognize new titles? Would PCCC titles carry enough weight worth getting in case it has to introduce its own?
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(5) Posted by Paz Einat [Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 23:13]

Why do we need FIDE to recognize the titles? Does it provide any benefit? These will simply be official PCCC composing, judging and solving titles.
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(6) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 23:30]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [09-03-22]

It may not matter for an insider like members of MatPlus forum but for an outsider FIDE name carries far more weight in chess that any other.
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(7) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 00:52]; edited by Siegfried Hornecker [09-03-27]

You overestimate the FIDE.

Since the Campomanes era the FIDE is burdening the chess world and no more the organisation Machgielis Euwe had in mind when founding it. There was a time when FIDE had lost all of its meaning and only thing it still had was its name. When the chess world was divided in 1993, Kasparov still was regarded the world champion by most people. Without insulting the FIDE it still can be said that their title essentially had no meaning. Nothing would prevent them from this happening again, so they essentially will have no meaning anymore in very few decades. What they did with the WCh cycle is a good example, how they pushed out Magnus Carlsen until he couragely decided to go himself. He is a hero like Kasparov was in 1985!

And of course: The FIDE has the money, the sponsors, the connections. But what if some powerful [removed possible insult against FIDE. SH, March 27th] people in the FIDE would found a new chess association?
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(8) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 07:26]

Regarding our PCCC titles, I gained both GM norms (solving and composing). However I did not get any certificate proving this. I did check with Marjan. He did not get his GM composing certificate either. So I feel like I am holding some virtual titles. I do own certificates that I am IM. However I do not know what is the reason to stop issuing certificates anymore.
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(9) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 07:41]

Is Andrey Selivanov replacing Uri Avner? Does the chairman title replace the president title?
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(10) Posted by Michael McDowell [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 08:15]

It's news to me that FIDE was founded by Max Euwe.
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(11) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 09:31]

Sorry, I meant Alexander Rueb, get always confused with this!
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(12) Posted by Kevin Begley [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 17:55]

Do FIDE titles provide any benefit?

Last I checked, FIDE GM's (Composers and Solvers) are entitled to free accounts on the Internet Chess Club -- same as OTB GM's.
I assume this is true in other venues as well. [note: last I checked, only one GM Solver was registered (no GM Composers) -- but he also holds a GM title in OTB Chess]

Nobody can argue that FIDE titles -- nevermind the organization itself -- did have some easily transferable exchange rate with our friends in the OTB and Correspondence communities. As such, each specific FIDE titles carried some quantifiable level of respect from those in other disciplines.

Will that remain true of PCCC titles?

It all depends...
There are already national IM/GM titles, plus FIDE IM/GM titles, and now, make room for PCCC IM/GM titles.

Net result: nobody on the outside will understand what all these different IM/GM titles mean.

My suggestions:
1) quickly move to recognize any FIDE FM/IM/GM title with an equivalent PCCC FM/IM/GM title.
2) keep these titles highly visible (online).
3) on this same page, explain what a PCCC title means, and how some of the best known composers may not be found on the list.

A final point to ponder:
If FIDE is no longer the governing body, will this have some impact on the relative value of composed studies (found in future albums)? Frankly, I never understood how a 5 move study could be worth more than a 30 move retro. I just assumed this was FIDE's best attempt to encourage problems of a quassi-practical nature...
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(13) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 18:36]

Actually, as I see some confusion on the board, it would be great if PCCC (or its representatives) would explain the matter. The status and expected consequences of the FIDE decision. I understand that the issue might be still under development and indeed the future actions require good consideration, nevertheless as many of us are involved in the work for PCCC on varying levels (of course, voluntary work), the consequences probably would affect the results of our work. Please.
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(14) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 19:47]

It is very simple: Kirsan Ilyumzinov is the King of Kalmikia and the owner of the FIDE, and he can do anything. Today he founded "Chess Composition" as his special project, and his excelency appointed mr. Andrey Selivanov to rule with chess composers. No more PCCC! No more Uri Avner! No more democracy! The King rules! :-)
Let's remember Antalya 2008. Tommorow you will pay a membership to his excellency. Only those who pay, can participate to chess composition tourneys. It is big progress, the bigest progress after Alain C. White and 'Christmas Series', after Piran 1958 ... This is a miracle! :-)
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(15) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 21:15]

Kevin wrote:
1) quickly move to recognize any FIDE FM/IM/GM title with an equivalent PCCC FM/IM/GM title.

Why should be FIDE FM/IM/GM title holders be recognized with an equivalent PCCC FM/IM/GM title? I do not see any similarity. There is no rule that good OTB player is good solver (or composer). Also the other way around is not valid either. As a holder of two GM titles (composer and solver) I would feel very bad if the same title is awarded somebody just because he is good in OTB chess. This is almost like you are recommending erasing chess problem titles completely. If there are hundreds of PCCC GM title holders then nobody would even recognize real problemists among them. This does not make any sense to me.
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(16) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 21:15]; edited by Miodrag Mladenović [09-03-23]

It looks like I accidently hit the "Submit" button twice. I was not able to delete duplicate message. Instead I just edit it. Please ignore this message.
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(17) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Mar 23, 2009 23:38]

Why should be FIDE FM/IM/GM title holders be recognized with an equivalent PCCC FM/IM/GM title? I do not see any similarity.

I offer you my 99.5 percent certainty that he meant solving and composing titles of the FIDE.
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(18) Posted by Neal Turner [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 10:58]

"PCCC became independent, but is still an associated member of FIDE according to Andrey Selivanov who broke the story"

On the FIDE pages the PCCC is not on the list of Affiliated Organisations, but maybe it never was.
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(19) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 11:20]; edited by Dejan Glisić [09-03-24]

Dear Neal,
of course - PCCC is annihilated and it doesn't exist any more. Now the ex-members of the ex-PCCC have to establish a new international organization of chess composition and then enter into FIDE, as associated organization. Who knows, maybe the membership will be much more than 7.000 euro. :-)
I hope that my jokes are not going to be the thruth in the future.
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(20) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 12:32]

What is all this thread about? I'm trying hard, but I don't understand. I would suggest that members stop raving without having consolidated pieces of information, otherwise they only create confusion, as Juraj wrote above. Until there is some official info from the PCCC Presidium, as and if necessary, addressed to the delegates and to our community, what is the point of all this speculation?
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MatPlus.Net Forum General PCCC is no more a part of FIDE