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Milan Velimirović
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| | Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2 3 4 5 | | (21) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 08:49] |
QUOTE
There are rumors, WinChloe license is tied to your computer.
After you install WinChloe, you have to activate your license with the author's server, which checks if the same license is already being used. There's no check of your computer's hardware, like Windows does. As soon as you pass the check, you don't need to be connected to the server any more. You can use the same license in a second computer (your laptop, for instance), but not at the same time. You have to first de-activate the license in the first computer (from inside the program) and activate it in the second computer. I've done it many times, it is very easy and works fine. If your hard disc fails, or you have to format everything because of a virus, spyware, or whatever, then you can simply write to the author to remove your license from the server so you can use it again, or assign a new one to you.
QUOTE
I think even Harry could agree that this whole issue is not as obvious and clear-cut as appeared in the beginning.
On the contrary, it is very clear to me.
| | | (22) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 08:55] |
QUOTE
then you can simply write to the author
This is not an optimal solution as long as there is only one person who can do this. There should be at least three for reasons of security...
| | | (23) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 10:08] |
Maybe, I cannot tell. What I know from experience is that whatever question or need for support I had so far was (is) answered by the author within the same day (in fact, most of the times within the same hour.)
| | | (24) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 11:19] |
Dudes, please keep calm, everybody. I still remember the
great pRA vs. AP fisticuffs, and boy, that wasn't a nice sight.
If anyone has to be blamed, blame capitalism[tm] :-)
In an ideal world, everybody would work together freely
for the benefit of problem chess, but Christian has to pay
his rent, too. Instead of going into obscure details of
moral and legit rights where everybody has an opinion,
we better should ask Christian under which condition he
would share the problems from WinChloe. There are "crippled"
try-out versions to almost any program on the Internet,
so maybe this could work for WinChloe too. After all, it's
not the problems themselve that are sold, but the "whistles
and bells" (theme index, search functions, whatever - I
don't have WinChloe).
BTW, I see the same issue coming up with the Degener 2# CD...
Hauke
| | | (25) Posted by Administrator [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 12:40] |
QUOTE
"You are aggressive and talkative, and wrong"
Please avoid personal qualification and etiquettes. You may say that somebody is wrong, but to characterize the person who thinks opposite is not correct (if not worse!), at least while you are the guest on this site.
Administrator
======
Now, can anyone define what part of the WinChloe database is forbidden to be used by others:
- author's names and sources ?
- positions ?
- stipulations ?
- solutions ?
- theme annotations (we may agree about this)
- solutions ?
- any text in French ?
- the very idea of chess problem database as a whole ?
What are my rights, after all? My future action doesn't depend much of your answer, but I will consider any opinion. So say it now, or keep silent forever.
Milan Velimirovic
| | | (26) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 13:17]; edited by Harry Fougiaxis [07-09-04] |
QUOTE
Can anyone define what part of the WinChloe database is forbidden to be used by others.
You do not clarify the purpose of use and the form in which the material will be presented.
Edit : Random links added, after googling for "databases copyright"
http://europa.eu.int/ISPO/infosoc/legreg/docs/969ec.html
http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Intellectual_Property_Rights/SEM2M2M26WD_0.html
http://ahds.ac.uk/copyrightfaq.htm
http://ezinearticles.com/?Copyright-Protection-Of-Databases&id=628623
| | | (27) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 13:18]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [07-09-04] |
QUOTE
Now, can anyone define what part of the WinChloe database is forbidden to be used by others
Everything that is an own intellectual property. I think, it means the themes classification and the compilation of the problems. If you'd reenter from other sources it'd be not objectionable, though. Strange world we live in.
QUOTE
- author's names and sources ?
- positions ?
- stipulations ?
- solutions ? QUOTE
- the very idea of chess problem database as a whole ?
Free to use, I think
QUOTE
- theme annotations (we may agree about this) QUOTE
- any text in French ?
If it is not your own work, I think you should not use it. And again, the compilation as such. There should at least be doubt upon the sources and there can be none if all annotations are the same, etc.
I was thinking about license fees but at the price of the database I think they'd have to be between 200 and 400 Euro per month so it would be too expensive unless you get some hundred subscribers.
Half offtopic PS:
A search at Edward Winter's pages yielded the following for games:
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/copyright.html
PPS:
I'm not a lawyer so don't treat my word this way. :-)
PPPS:
Of course, in a perfect world, omnia sunt communia.
| | | (28) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 17:02] |
QUOTE
After you install WinChloe, you have to activate your license with the author's server, which checks if the same license is already being used. There's no check of your computer's hardware, like Windows does. As soon as you pass the check, you don't need to be connected to the server any more. You can use the same license in a second computer (your laptop, for instance), but not at the same time. You have to first de-activate the license in the first computer (from inside the program) and activate it in the second computer. I've done it many times, it is very easy and works fine. If your hard disc fails, or you have to format everything because of a virus, spyware, or whatever, then you can simply write to the author to remove your license from the server so you can use it again, or assign a new one to you.
Thanks for clarification. Couple more questions. I am just back from vacation where internet was not available at all. Is it possible to use WinChloe in this case? Suppose, I activated Winchloe on my desktop. If I want to you use it on my laptop, I need to deactivate it on my desktop first and reactivate on a laptop, correct? If I use both computers every day, what are my options except acivating/deactivating it for each use?
| | | (29) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 18:28] |
It is not personnal, I don't know mr Tyapkin, and I'll be happy to meet him if it happens.
What I say is bound to the sent messages only.
Agressive : to distribute adjectives like "good, bad, poor, legal, generous..." and so on, for, and only for criticism is a very agressive way of writing
Talkative : to write very long posts without serious content, repeating things, saying one thing, and its opposite (for example if Winchloe is so full of defects, where this will of copying it is coming from ?) is talkative, and not nice for the readers.
Wrong : it understandable that I don't agree with mr Tyapkin, it seems to me to be appropriate to say it shortly
Moreover all the technical questions of mr Tyapkin seem to be most disparaging, and indicate a will of copying Winchloe, I invite him to ask all this to Christian himself.
| | | (30) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 18:47] |
QUOTE
I am just back from vacation where internet was not available at all. Is it possible to use WinChloe in this case? Suppose, I activated Winchloe on my desktop. If I want to use it on my laptop, I need to deactivate it on my desktop first and reactivate on a laptop, correct?
You can install it in as many computers as you wish, but you cannot use it in more than one computers simultaneously. So, you deactivate it on your PC, you reactivate it in your laptop, and you're ready to go for vacations. You don't need to be online to use it.
QUOTE
If I use both computers every day, what are my options except activating/deactivating it for each use?
I think you don't have any other practical options. As far as I know, either you buy a second license, or you ask Christian to assign to you a temporary one. I used this second option for the preparation of the bulletin in Eretria WCCC 2005, because we were more than two licensed persons working for the bulletin at the same time. I explained to Christian why I needed an extra license, he created a temp user ID, and as soon as I finished my work, I wrote back that he could now delete this user ID from the server.
| | | (31) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 18:54]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [07-09-04] |
Now, to answer Milan.
The point here is not only a question of ethics, or moral, or laws.
Such a database is a living thing it costed already thousands of hours of precious work, and still a daily hard work to hold it on : new inputs, new corrections of old inputs, news names, new themes, many mails, and so on. Christian is doing all that.
It seems to me evident that our small world is most interested in the maintaining of this task. We all should understand that we have to encourage and help him, and to avoid to sicken him, of all that.
He could finally choose to stop his work, what would be for all of us a great loose. There are still many things in progress.
| | | (32) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 19:07]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [07-09-04] |
QUOTE
Agressive : to distribute adjectives like "good, bad, poor, legal, generous..." and so on, for, and only for criticism is a very agressive way of writing
It is not aggression. I'd say I am upset with this whole copyright claim. I am going to write another lengthy post to make my point again.
QUOTE
Talkative : to write very long posts without serious content, repeating things, saying one thing, and its opposite (for example if
Winchloe is so full of defects, where this will of copying it is coming from ?) is talkative, and not nice for the readers.
While my posts may lack serious content, it is even worse saying that your opponent if wrong without any arguments. Making unpleasant epithets to your opponent is very uncivil way to have a discussion.
I never said that Winchloe is full of defects. I've never seen this software in action! I gave some useful advices how to better market Winchloe and attract new buyers. Christian should welcome such feedback from potential customers
Nobody forces you to read this thread or participate in discussion. Feel free to ignore my posts.
QUOTE
Wrong : it understandable that I don't agree with mr Tyapkin, it seems to me to be appropriate to say it shortly
This is impolite to your opponent. It is very easy to say how wrong he is, it is more difficult to spent time and write something to the point.
QUOTE
Moreover all the technical questions of mr Tyapkin seem to be most disparaging, and indicate a will of copying Winchloe, I invite him to ask all this to Christian himself.
This is a flat lie. I said that part of Winchloe database if available for everybody and Christian should take better care if he wants to protect it.
| | | (33) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 19:22] |
Harry, I really appreciate your patience to answer my questions and keep discussion in civil manner, despite all our disagreements.
| | | (34) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 19:51]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [07-09-04] |
QUOTE
Such a database is a living thing it costed already thousands of hours of precious work, and still a daily hard work to hold it on : new inputs, new corrections of old inputs, news names, new themes, many mails, and so on. Christian is doing all that.
Can you explain how Milan's using Winchloe database will hurt existing and potential users of Winchloe? You still have your precious gem.
You can still solve problems, record, correct, and comment existing ones. There are probably lots of other features I am not aware of. Milan did not take it away from you. I can hardly see a potential Winchloe customer using MPDBS instead. You cannot take MPDBS with you on vacation trip. You cannot produce such nice books as FIDE Albums. Why you are so afraid? Why not to give something back to Milan? You are using his pasttime feature almost every day and not even a MatPlus subscriber. If 200 Euros is cheap, 40 is five time cheaper.
However, I can see a harm done by this claim. Now I am thinking to stop contributing my scans to Vaclav's archive. I spent a great deal of money and time to acquire and scan all the materials. I don't claim that by doing it I created some new intellectual property. But I am not comfortable if my work could be used for the benefit of Winchloe users.
| | | (35) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 20:37]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [07-09-04] |
I'll try one more time to explain myself. I see it as a very important issue. I would not participate in this discussion otherwise.
There are two good things happened in the chess problem community for the last several years. One is a wonderful archive of chess problem books carefully maintained by Vaclav Kotesovec. It is available to everybody. One can find old and rare(and not so old and rare) chess problem books and magazines on Russian, Dutch, English, German to name a few. Another one is chess problem databases: public and private. I am sure it helps to attract 'fresh blood' to our aging community and stimulate further research in the area.
It is not a secret that to make those wonderful things happen, a lot of materials are used without author's permission. Harry did it for Winchloe, I did it for Vaclav's archive.
I was under impression that there was some kind of consensus in the community on that issue. This copyright claim breaks existing status quo.
I spent several thousand dollars to acquire chess books and magazines for the last year alone and had plans to scan it and put online eventually for the benefit of the community. Most of them pretty old and most importantly hard to find.
My goal is not a pure altruism. Many interesting books were printed in small quantities. Sometimes, it is hard to find for any price! I feel it is my moral obligation to preserve these treasures and make it available for a wider audience who cannot afford to own it. The best reward is when some kind person scans his chess archive and shares it with us.
This copyright claim makes me feel greedy and keep everything for myself and my friends.
So, what to do?
One approach to deal with the issue is some kind of gentleman's agreement among problemists, book authors, and database owners not to threat to each other and how to use somebody else's work . This may seem idealistic and naive but I am sure something could be worked out. I would be satisfied, for example, if Winchloe contributors make all problems recorded using my scans publicly available.
| | | (36) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 00:24] |
Dear mr Tyapkin
you say :
"Why not to give something back to Milan? You are using his pasttime feature almost every day and not even a MatPlus subscriber. If 200 Euros is cheap, 40 is five time cheaper."
I say it is a personnal attack.
I don't care, but it is a good illustration of the style you use :
it is agressive, and, not bound to the context, it is talkative.
And of course you are wrong
| | | (37) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 00:41]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [07-09-05] |
QUOTE
I say it is a personnal attack it is agressive, and, not bound to the context, it is talkative.
it is called sarcasm, not aggression. You started this personal attack, and repeat it over and over again. I merely responded to it. I've should use a smiley but cannot find tag for it.
Please, keep your opinion about me and my style to yourself and respond to my points.
QUOTE
And of course you are wrong
Sorry for that. But you are not listed as subscriber on members page.
| | | (38) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 01:14]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [07-09-05] |
ok mr Tyapkin,
you are "upset", you have "sarcasms", and you are not aggressive ?
you accuse me of lying, and it is not aggressive ?
| | | (39) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 01:28]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [07-09-05] |
QUOTE
you are "upset", you have "sarcasms", and you are not aggressive ?
Take it easy.
QUOTE
you accuse me of lying, and it is not a aggressive ?
Yes, I did. You accused me of 'indicate a will of copying Winchloe' that is not true. I did not say neither mean anything like that.
I am not going to respond to your posts unless you say something on the subject. And the subject is neither aggression, nor somebody's writing style, nor being too 'talkative'. :-)
| | | (40) Posted by Administrator [Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 02:49] |
Cool down, please! This is leading nowhere.
Please stick to the subject!
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