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MatPlus.Net  Forum General 75 move rule |
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| | | (1) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Jul 29, 2020 11:57] | 75 move rule
There are many retros playing with the 50 move rule.
The FIDE 75 move rule (it is automatically draw even without
a claim) is only relevant to OTB, as in problem chess
it is assumed that already the 50 move rule works
automatically. Nevertheless, do you have a position
for me where 75 moves without a capture or pawn move
have been made for sure?
| | | (2) Posted by James Malcom [Thursday, Aug 13, 2020 09:11] |
I did a scan of 50-move problems on PDB, and it just so happens that there is one that is exactly 75 moves long. I took some time to animate it-https://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/P0008399
Thomas Volet, Rex Multiplex 1983, 1. Preis
=
 (= 14+12 )
Solution- Taken from the Retros Mailing List: https://pairlist1.pair.net/pipermail/retros/2004-December/001006.html
-1.Rh1-g1 Bb8-a7 -2.Rh5-h1 Ba7-b8 -3.Rd5-h5 Bb8-a7 -4.Rd2-d5 Ba7-b8 -5.Rc2-d2 Bb8-a7 -6.Rc1-c2 Kc2-b3 -7.Ra1-c1 Kd2-c2 -8.Bb4-a3 Ke1-d2 -9.Ra3-a1 Kd2-e1 -10.Rb3-a3 Ke1-d2 -11.Ba3-b4 Kd2-e1 -12.Rb5-b3 Ke1-d2 -13.Ra5-b5 Kd2-e1 -14.Ra7-a5 Ke1-d2 -15.Rb7-a7 Ba7-b8 -16.Rb8-b7 Kd2-e1 -17.Kg8-f8 Ke1-d2 -18.Rf8-b8 Re8-e7 -19.Kh8-g8 Rb8-e8 -20.Rc8-f8 Rb7-b8 -21.Kg8-h8 Bb8-a7 -22.Kf8-g8 Ra7-b7 -23.Ke7-f8 Ra5-a7 -24.Rd8-c8 Ba7-b8 -25.Rb8-d8 Rb5-a5 -26.Rb7-b8 Bb8-a7 -27.Ra7-b7 Rb3-b5 -28.Bb4-a3 Ra3-b3 -29.Ra5-a7 Ra1-a3 -30.Rb5-a5 Rc1-a1 -31.Ba5-b4 Rc2-c1 -32.Rb3-b5 Rd2-c2 -33.Ra3-b3 Rd6-d2 -34.Ra1-a3 Rd5-d6 -35.Rc1-a1 Rf5-d5 -36.Rc2-c1 Rf4-f5 -37.Rd2-c2 Re4-f4 -38.Rd6-d2 Rd4-e4 -39.Rd5-d6 Rd2-d4 -40.Rd4-d5 Rc2-d2 -41.Rd2-d4 Rc1-c2 -42.Rc2-d2 Ra1-c1 -43.Rc1-c2 Ra3-a1 -44.Ra1-c1 Rb3-a3 -45.Ra3-a1 Rb5-b3 -46.Bb4-a5 Ra5-b5 -47.Rb3-a3 Ra7-a5 -48.Ba3-b4 Rb7-a7 -49.Rb5-b3 Ba7-b8 -50.Ra5-b5 Rb8-b7 -51.Ra6-a5 Rg8-b8 -52.Ra5-a6 Bb8-a7 -53.Ra7-a5 Rh8-g8 -54.Rb7-a7 Ba7-b8 -55.Rb8-b7 Rg8-h8 -56.Rf8-b8 Bb8-a7 -57.Kd8-e7 Ba7-b8 -58.Kc8-d8 Rh8-g8 -59.Kb7-c8 Rg8-h8 -60.Rb8-f8 Re8-g8 -61.Kc8-b7 Re7-e8 -62.Rb7-b8 Bb8-a7 -63.Ra7-b7 Kd2-e1 -64.Ra5-a7 Ke1-d2 -65.Rb5-a5 Kd2-e1 -66.Rb3-b5 Ke1-d2 -67.Bb4-a3 Kd2-e1 -68.Ra3-b3 Kc2-d2 -69.Ra1-a3 Kb3-c2 -70.Rc1-a1 Ka2-b3 -71.Rc2-c1 Kb1-a2 -72.Rd2-c2 Ka2-b1 -73.Rd5-d2 Kb1-a2 -74.Rh5-d5 Ka2-b1 -75.Rh1-h5 Ka1-a2 -76.h3xBg4
Lucky us, Hauke!
Intended by the author that long ago? No. But does it work for us? Heck yes!
| | | (3) Posted by Joost de Heer [Thursday, Aug 13, 2020 14:13] |
I don't see the automatic draw that Hauke claims:
https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012018
9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence.
'At least' and 'mate precedes draw' imply that this isn't an automatic rule.
And something strange: The OTB rule doesn't mention castling, the codex doesn't mention castling, so who invented the 'rule' that castling resets the move counter for the 50-move rule and on what authority?
| | | (4) Posted by Jakob Leck [Thursday, Aug 13, 2020 18:09] |
9.6 in the Fide rules is an additional tool of enforcement for the arbiter. According to the 50-move rule the game is drawn after a correct claim by one of the players. But if none of the two players makes that claim, the game can theoretically go on forever and unneccessarily delay a tournament. This, I think, is the reason for the introduction of the 75-move rule, allowing the arbiter to take action and end the game, which the 50-move rule does not allow him to do.
Therefore the automatic draw in chess composition after 50 or 75 moves in both cases rests on assumptions: For the 50 moves it's at least one player willing to end the game, for the 75 moves it is a game where no player wishes to end it in a draw, but an impatient arbiter is watching the board at all times. :)
| | | (5) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 04:47] |
Joost, I had the same question about castling and the 50-move rule at this forum, many years ago. If I remember the answer correctly, there was a time when the rules stated that castling would reset the 50-move counter. There were several problems mainly by Nikita Plaksin, which apparently have become obsolete now, that were using this old rule. At least in the last 20-30 years, the rules are clear: Castling has no influence on the 50-move rule.
| | | (6) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 06:29] |
To find other PDB problems, James, try the query
G='Retro' and usercomment='75.' AND NOT G='Fairies' AND NOT K='Orthorekonstruktion' AND NOT K='Uneindeutige Beweispartie' AND NOT K='Eindeutige Beweispartie' AND NOT K='Verteidigungsrückzüger, Typ Proca' and not cooked
The essential part is usercomment='75.' because the sol field is not completed, and keywords are also not comprehensive. There are some false positives, but this is a good way to explore PDB although the substring search is slightly slower. Or maybe you already did this?
How would one search in Winchloe or YACPDB for problems with long retro solutions, please?
| | | (7) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 10:14] |
QUOTE
How would one search in Winchloe for problems with long retro solutions, please?
Make a query to search for the string "75." in the solution.
| | | (8) Posted by Thomas Brand [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 18:09] |
Joost, Kostas, all,
Does anyone know when and by whom the "castling resets 50 move counter" was invented and later cancelled? Indeed I also remember some Plaksin problems based on the reset. When and why disappeared this old rule -- "at least in the last 20-30 years" is not very precise. So I suppose we must check the changes in the Codex -- back to Piran?! But the current Codex as of Vilnius 2019 only indirectly refers to the FIDE rules of Chess; Codex Article 17 simply states "Unless expressly stipulated, the 50 moves-rule does not apply to the solution of chess compositions except for retro-problems." -- this is not very helpful to answer our question. So we have to check the history of the FIDE rules of Chess?!
| | | (9) Posted by James Malcom [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 21:54] |
Never have the FIDE laws stated that castling resets the 50-move rule. See all versions here, I checked them myself-http://aekphotography.co.uk/CAA/html/laws_historic.html
| | | (10) Posted by Michel Caillaud [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 23:55] |
In old issues of Europe Echecs, the reference for some problems by Nikita Plaksin is "article 5 du Codex de la Composition, Congrès de Piran 1958".
(Same?) reference in russian can be found in the famous article 50x50 by Nikita Plaksin (Problem, 1979), available on the Retrograde Analysis Corner at https://www.janko.at/Retros/Articles.
So, at some point, 50-moves rule was not the same for the composers and the players.
| | | (11) Posted by Thomas Brand [Saturday, Aug 15, 2020 12:27] |
I didn't find an original copy of the Piran Codex in my stock, but a series of small articles (quite critically) dealing with the Codex from the study point of view in EG 29. Here Art. 15 is cited (I suppose it should read Art. 5, since the articles before are 3 and 4):
"If a solution needs more than 50 moves without a capture, pawn move, or castling being involved, then the position is not considered drawn (16, 17). If retroanalysis and the solution prove that both sides have played 50 moves as above or more, then the position is automatically considered drawn."
Footnote 16 reads: "This modifies Art. 12, alinea 4, of the FIDE rules which state that a game is drawn if the player to move demonstrates that 50 moves at least have occurred without capture or a pawn move." -- that shows that the people at Piran (mainly Nenad Petrovic) knew what they did.
So it were fine if we could find out when and why castlings was removed from the 50-moves rule.
P.S.: In his "50x50" article (Problem 1979) Plaksin cites §15 (sic!) and footnote 16 of the "FIDE Codex) -- maybe based on the mentioned EG 29 article ("THE CODEX FOR CHESS COMPOSITIONS Spotlight and Comments" by Walter Veitch, EG 29, September 1972, pp.361-363)?!
| | | (12) Posted by Guus Rol [Friday, Nov 27, 2020 18:12] |
Neither of the 75M and 5R rules is about the arbiter, neither is it about arbitration. It is about reality and it is about facts. Like the reality of the tree which rests on the mountain slope whether or not anyone ever arrives there to observe it. The critical word is "occurs":
9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:
9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.
9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence.
The responsibility of anyone involved - players, arbiters, engines and whoever can legally bring the news without disturbing the peace of the event - is to diagnose that fact. It's even OK for the audience - given the opportunity - to tell the arbiter a 75M transgression has taken place. It's not squealing, it's not affecting the outcome of the game. It is merely stating the fact that the game has already ended and help to stop everyone wasting his time.
I am pretty sure the 9.6 rules were introduced for engine use and it is absolutely OK for an engine to end a game after 75M whatever the opinion of the players. The engine simply brings the message that the game ended in accordance with the FIDE rules. It's on the same level of legitimacy as setting up the standard PAS before the game.
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