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MatPlus.Net Forum General 75 move rule 



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  (1) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Jul 29, 2020 11:57]  75 move rule There are many retros playing with the 50 move rule.
The FIDE 75 move rule (it is automatically draw even without
a claim) is only relevant to OTB, as in problem chess
it is assumed that already the 50 move rule works
automatically. Nevertheless, do you have a position
for me where 75 moves without a capture or pawn move
have been made for sure?   (2) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Thursday, Aug 13, 2020 09:11]  I did a scan of 50move problems on PDB, and it just so happens that there is one that is exactly 75 moves long. I took some time to animate ithttps://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/P0008399
Thomas Volet, Rex Multiplex 1983, 1. Preis
=
(= 14+12 )
Solution Taken from the Retros Mailing List: https://pairlist1.pair.net/pipermail/retros/2004December/001006.html
1.Rh1g1 Bb8a7 2.Rh5h1 Ba7b8 3.Rd5h5 Bb8a7 4.Rd2d5 Ba7b8 5.Rc2d2 Bb8a7 6.Rc1c2 Kc2b3 7.Ra1c1 Kd2c2 8.Bb4a3 Ke1d2 9.Ra3a1 Kd2e1 10.Rb3a3 Ke1d2 11.Ba3b4 Kd2e1 12.Rb5b3 Ke1d2 13.Ra5b5 Kd2e1 14.Ra7a5 Ke1d2 15.Rb7a7 Ba7b8 16.Rb8b7 Kd2e1 17.Kg8f8 Ke1d2 18.Rf8b8 Re8e7 19.Kh8g8 Rb8e8 20.Rc8f8 Rb7b8 21.Kg8h8 Bb8a7 22.Kf8g8 Ra7b7 23.Ke7f8 Ra5a7 24.Rd8c8 Ba7b8 25.Rb8d8 Rb5a5 26.Rb7b8 Bb8a7 27.Ra7b7 Rb3b5 28.Bb4a3 Ra3b3 29.Ra5a7 Ra1a3 30.Rb5a5 Rc1a1 31.Ba5b4 Rc2c1 32.Rb3b5 Rd2c2 33.Ra3b3 Rd6d2 34.Ra1a3 Rd5d6 35.Rc1a1 Rf5d5 36.Rc2c1 Rf4f5 37.Rd2c2 Re4f4 38.Rd6d2 Rd4e4 39.Rd5d6 Rd2d4 40.Rd4d5 Rc2d2 41.Rd2d4 Rc1c2 42.Rc2d2 Ra1c1 43.Rc1c2 Ra3a1 44.Ra1c1 Rb3a3 45.Ra3a1 Rb5b3 46.Bb4a5 Ra5b5 47.Rb3a3 Ra7a5 48.Ba3b4 Rb7a7 49.Rb5b3 Ba7b8 50.Ra5b5 Rb8b7 51.Ra6a5 Rg8b8 52.Ra5a6 Bb8a7 53.Ra7a5 Rh8g8 54.Rb7a7 Ba7b8 55.Rb8b7 Rg8h8 56.Rf8b8 Bb8a7 57.Kd8e7 Ba7b8 58.Kc8d8 Rh8g8 59.Kb7c8 Rg8h8 60.Rb8f8 Re8g8 61.Kc8b7 Re7e8 62.Rb7b8 Bb8a7 63.Ra7b7 Kd2e1 64.Ra5a7 Ke1d2 65.Rb5a5 Kd2e1 66.Rb3b5 Ke1d2 67.Bb4a3 Kd2e1 68.Ra3b3 Kc2d2 69.Ra1a3 Kb3c2 70.Rc1a1 Ka2b3 71.Rc2c1 Kb1a2 72.Rd2c2 Ka2b1 73.Rd5d2 Kb1a2 74.Rh5d5 Ka2b1 75.Rh1h5 Ka1a2 76.h3xBg4
Lucky us, Hauke!
Intended by the author that long ago? No. But does it work for us? Heck yes!   (3) Posted by Joost de Heer [Thursday, Aug 13, 2020 14:13]  I don't see the automatic draw that Hauke claims:
https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012018
9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence.
'At least' and 'mate precedes draw' imply that this isn't an automatic rule.
And something strange: The OTB rule doesn't mention castling, the codex doesn't mention castling, so who invented the 'rule' that castling resets the move counter for the 50move rule and on what authority?   (4) Posted by Jakob Leck [Thursday, Aug 13, 2020 18:09]  9.6 in the Fide rules is an additional tool of enforcement for the arbiter. According to the 50move rule the game is drawn after a correct claim by one of the players. But if none of the two players makes that claim, the game can theoretically go on forever and unneccessarily delay a tournament. This, I think, is the reason for the introduction of the 75move rule, allowing the arbiter to take action and end the game, which the 50move rule does not allow him to do.
Therefore the automatic draw in chess composition after 50 or 75 moves in both cases rests on assumptions: For the 50 moves it's at least one player willing to end the game, for the 75 moves it is a game where no player wishes to end it in a draw, but an impatient arbiter is watching the board at all times. :)   (5) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 04:47]  Joost, I had the same question about castling and the 50move rule at this forum, many years ago. If I remember the answer correctly, there was a time when the rules stated that castling would reset the 50move counter. There were several problems mainly by Nikita Plaksin, which apparently have become obsolete now, that were using this old rule. At least in the last 2030 years, the rules are clear: Castling has no influence on the 50move rule.   (6) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 06:29]  To find other PDB problems, James, try the query
G='Retro' and usercomment='75.' AND NOT G='Fairies' AND NOT K='Orthorekonstruktion' AND NOT K='Uneindeutige Beweispartie' AND NOT K='Eindeutige Beweispartie' AND NOT K='Verteidigungsrückzüger, Typ Proca' and not cooked
The essential part is usercomment='75.' because the sol field is not completed, and keywords are also not comprehensive. There are some false positives, but this is a good way to explore PDB although the substring search is slightly slower. Or maybe you already did this?
How would one search in Winchloe or YACPDB for problems with long retro solutions, please?   (7) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 10:14] 
QUOTE How would one search in Winchloe for problems with long retro solutions, please?
Make a query to search for the string "75." in the solution.   (8) Posted by Thomas Brand [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 18:09]  Joost, Kostas, all,
Does anyone know when and by whom the "castling resets 50 move counter" was invented and later cancelled? Indeed I also remember some Plaksin problems based on the reset. When and why disappeared this old rule  "at least in the last 2030 years" is not very precise. So I suppose we must check the changes in the Codex  back to Piran?! But the current Codex as of Vilnius 2019 only indirectly refers to the FIDE rules of Chess; Codex Article 17 simply states "Unless expressly stipulated, the 50 movesrule does not apply to the solution of chess compositions except for retroproblems."  this is not very helpful to answer our question. So we have to check the history of the FIDE rules of Chess?!   (9) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 21:54]  Never have the FIDE laws stated that castling resets the 50move rule. See all versions here, I checked them myselfhttp://aekphotography.co.uk/CAA/html/laws_historic.html   (10) Posted by Michel Caillaud [Friday, Aug 14, 2020 23:55]  In old issues of Europe Echecs, the reference for some problems by Nikita Plaksin is "article 5 du Codex de la Composition, Congrès de Piran 1958".
(Same?) reference in russian can be found in the famous article 50x50 by Nikita Plaksin (Problem, 1979), available on the Retrograde Analysis Corner at https://www.janko.at/Retros/Articles.
So, at some point, 50moves rule was not the same for the composers and the players.   (11) Posted by Thomas Brand [Saturday, Aug 15, 2020 12:27]  I didn't find an original copy of the Piran Codex in my stock, but a series of small articles (quite critically) dealing with the Codex from the study point of view in EG 29. Here Art. 15 is cited (I suppose it should read Art. 5, since the articles before are 3 and 4):
"If a solution needs more than 50 moves without a capture, pawn move, or castling being involved, then the position is not considered drawn (16, 17). If retroanalysis and the solution prove that both sides have played 50 moves as above or more, then the position is automatically considered drawn."
Footnote 16 reads: "This modifies Art. 12, alinea 4, of the FIDE rules which state that a game is drawn if the player to move demonstrates that 50 moves at least have occurred without capture or a pawn move."  that shows that the people at Piran (mainly Nenad Petrovic) knew what they did.
So it were fine if we could find out when and why castlings was removed from the 50moves rule.
P.S.: In his "50x50" article (Problem 1979) Plaksin cites §15 (sic!) and footnote 16 of the "FIDE Codex)  maybe based on the mentioned EG 29 article ("THE CODEX FOR CHESS COMPOSITIONS Spotlight and Comments" by Walter Veitch, EG 29, September 1972, pp.361363)?!   No more posts 
MatPlus.Net Forum General 75 move rule 


