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MatPlus.Net Forum General Still another free for all construction task
 
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(1) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Monday, May 28, 2012 18:43]

Still another free for all construction task


(= 8+7 )


Restart in minimally 14 moves

Explain-O-Mat: The 50 move rule (OO,x or P) can be restarted fastest after 14.Kxc8.
Increase "14".

- You may choose "Help" or "Direct" mode. (This one is "Help", obviously.)
- The position must be legal and alive (wPb6 instead of bPb6 is dead since Kxc8
stalemates, *and* illegal as far as I can count.)

Variant: If White can win the position after restart (add wPh6/bPh7), the stipulation
may read "Position after the n-th move without restart, White wins".
Variant of Variant: The latter can be even omitted if it can be proven retroanalytically,
but I never saw a Gordian retroknot that couldn't be hacked in one move in
forward play. (If you know, post here, it would be of interest.)

Hauke
 
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(2) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 19:50]; edited by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [13-07-30]

(= 8+8 )


Restart in minimally 21 moves

Edit: Sorry, I just realized Bd6 must be promoted force. :(
 
 
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(3) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 20:28]; edited by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [13-07-30]

OK, new try, without promoted force:

(= 8+9 )


Restart in minimally 17 moves

If White is allowed to be in check in the initial position, you can add one more move by adding wPa6/bPa7 and move White's king to a5.

Edit: Sorry again, apparently my head is not completely alert today. Moving White's king to a5 does NOT add any more moves, of course.
 
   
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(4) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Tuesday, Aug 6, 2013 11:08]

My try was:

(= 10+10 )


17 moves

Hauke
 
   
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(5) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Tuesday, Aug 6, 2013 11:24]; edited by Hauke Reddmann [13-08-06]

What about this?

(= 10+10 )


18 moves? Legal? (Seems so, but as a mathematician, I can't count properly :-)

Hauke
 
   
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(6) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Tuesday, Aug 6, 2013 13:51]

Nice! As far as I can see, your counting is just fine. :)

And unless I am missing something (as usual), we can merge our ideas and make it 19 by moving bK to h1.
 
   
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(7) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Tuesday, Aug 6, 2013 14:33]

No, I was missing something again. wK hides on a1 and lets bK in, which makes 17 moves. So your version with 18 is longer.
 
   
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(8) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Tuesday, Aug 6, 2013 15:02]

Wait a minute. I think my original idea works after all, by adding two more imprisoned bishops:

(= 10+10 )


Restart in minimum 22 moves
 
   
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(9) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Aug 7, 2013 11:35]

Neat. BTW, one can also put the wK to f8, just for the lulz,
since it must let the bK through anyway.

Hauke
 
   
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(10) Posted by Arno Tungler [Thursday, Aug 8, 2013 18:17]

If I understand right that the goal is just "restart" and not "mate" or "win" or similar crooked aims, the beneath is a first try of the "direct" fighter.

(= 13+4 )


If I could count I would probably say that this gives a restart in 26 moves but who knows...?
The Zeller-trap may be able for some more moves. The only task for the bB is to be able to move. Maybe there is an idea that White needs to wait in order to avoid a black mate. Unfortunately, in the current setting a bS would disturb all white efforts on g2.
 
   
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(11) Posted by Arno Tungler [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 04:21]; edited by Arno Tungler [13-08-09]

With bBa6 and additionally wPb4 and bPb6 you have one move more and probably still a legal position...

Edit: I finally saw it - "The 50 move rule (OO,x or P)."

Maybe I should start with a chess course at Volkshochschule...
 
   
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(12) Posted by Frank Richter [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 07:51]

Restart in 2?
Be4 - B:f5
 
   
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(13) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 09:31]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [13-08-09]

Black does'nt help (due to what I understood)
But, the moves of the white pawn h2 are not a "restart"?
The stipulation could be " capture (direct) in 26 " ?
 
   
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(14) Posted by Arno Tungler [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 15:39]

Yes, that was the idea and Popeye confirmed that not less than 26 moves are needed for that. And yes, I overlooked that also a P-move is enough to "restart"...
 
   
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(15) Posted by Arno Tungler [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 16:24]

It seems the "direct" approach takes 41 moves to a "restart" with the following position. Popeye solves it with stipulation sx41 (self-capture in 41 moves) what means that Black tries to avoid the capture. No solution in 40 moves... Theoratically White could be one or two moves earlier be able to capture the bPh4 but that seems unlikely.

(= 9+9 )


Who bits more?
 
   
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(16) Posted by Arno Tungler [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 17:02]

I bit 48 moves to restart in the following position!

(= 9+9 )


Who bits 49??
 
   
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(17) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Friday, Aug 9, 2013 20:24]; edited by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [13-08-09]

That's funny - before seeing yours, I composed a completely different one with... 48 moves!

(= 9+12 )


(not checked with Popeye - I haven't taken the time to learn any of those programs)
 
   
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(18) Posted by Arno Tungler [Saturday, Aug 10, 2013 18:00]

Very nice idea with the bR-pendulum! Up to now I count only 47 moves, probably I overlooked a possibility for Black to lengthen...
1.Ba2 Re5+ 2.Kg4 Re3 3.Bb3 Rg3+ 4.Kf5 Re3 5.Ba4... 16.Kf5 Re3 17.Bf3! ~ 18.Kg4 19.Kh3 25.Kb2 31.Bb3 36.Kb7 Bd6/e5 37.Kb8 41.Bf5 Bd6! 42.Kb7! Be5 43.Kc8 Bd6 44.Kd8 Be5 45.Ke8 Bd6+ 46.Be4 and 47. restart
 
   
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(19) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Saturday, Aug 10, 2013 19:56]

You found exactly the line I intended, but I think you just counted one move wrong. After 37.Kb8, White needs five moves to move Bb3 to f5, so it's 42.Bf5, not 41.Bf5.

But I have now found a much better way to make use of the checking rook:

(= 9+8 )


This is getting a little complicated when White's bishop and king interfere, but if I got the lines right, this is a restart in 93 moves.
 
   
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(20) Posted by Frank Richter [Saturday, Aug 10, 2013 20:57]

After move 50 will be draw ;))
 
   
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Still another free for all construction task