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|(1) Posted by Valery Gurov [Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 23:04]|
E) h# (helpmates): J. Lois, V. Semenenko, H. Fougiaxis
Interestingly, and A.Semenenko participates in section h#? :-)))
|(2) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Friday, Feb 19, 2010 00:01]|
Hm. Composers with brothers cannot become judges? Or composers with judging relative cannot participate? (I cannot believe you hint any kind of collusion, so I am not asking.)
|(3) Posted by Valery Gurov [Friday, Feb 19, 2010 10:49]|
In my opinion(if Alexander participates certainly!) it is very strange, if not to tell unethically. WCCI is not usual competition, it is the World Сhampionship.
|(4) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Friday, Feb 19, 2010 12:41]|
Oh, then let's open the Pandora's box.
It is not necessary to be anyone's brother. We all know or at least have felt in the past that some judges prefer works of their compatriots. Not necessarily in bad faith, there are tens of reasons - unfortunately including collusion. There surely were many cases when in the otherwise anonymous competition the judge had known... more so in informal tourneys, but there at least everybody knew everything. So sorry, this particular case is the same. Let's forget it, there is no use to pursue it. On top, your post includes only your feelings, no problems were sent yet, no points given.
By the way, it is my intention for some time to provide statistics confirming at least statistically above statements on inclinations of judges, in an article. There are so many topics I would like to write about... :-) ... but this one is one particularly interesting, so maybe soon ...
|(5) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Friday, Feb 19, 2010 12:51]|
We've opened up Pandora's Box,
Pandora gave us keys and locks.
Maybe the latter is explainable just by the fact that composers of the eastern nations got the same kind of chess composition school, i.e. the Soviet or Georgian one so composers and judges share the same taste and it is easier for composers to compose works that are in the taste of the judge.
And what about the issue that this is a World Championship? Everyone will critically look at this, so there could not be a worse opportunity to give friendship points or the others less points, for that reason, even if we would suppose someone's cheating.
|(6) Posted by Thomas Maeder [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 07:53]|
E) h# (helpmates): J. Lois, V. Semenenko, H. Fougiaxis
Interestingly, and A. Semenenko participates in section h#? :-)))
Selecting judges is a matter of trust. Either we trust Valerij Semenenko to be able and willing to make a fair judgment, or we don't. I am not aware of any reason for us not to trust him.
I don't see how this could affect Aleksandr's right to participate.
|(7) Posted by Valery Gurov [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 11:00]|
And and here "trust"!? A question after all not in concrete people, and in principles and ethics.
I do not know any kind of sports where the such is admissible!
Tomas, and you trust me? Give I too I will and judge and participate?! :-))
|(8) Posted by Joost de Heer [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 11:08]|
The whole system of judging is based on trust. This is an open judging, if there are irregularities then actions can be taken afterwards, but in front implying that a judge will deliver bad results (because that *is* what you're implying) is just unacceptable.
Everyone has a judge that he likes or dislikes. I, for instance, don't want Nikita Plaksin as FIDE album judge for retros, looking at his abysmal judging of proofgames.
|(9) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 17:47]|
I think it's impossible to convince someone like Joost de Heer. Valery gives him the fact that the judging system in every sport is not based on trust alone. The fact is ignored. The reply suggests that chess composers know better how to judge competitions than anyone in the world. So I feel egoism behind these nice words about trust.
Here's another question: "If judges don’t have a particular sympathy towards their countrymen why then 3 selected judges cannot be from one country?"
The only sensible solution is to appoint the fourth judge who would give scores to the other judges’ countrymen.
This will provide Joost with a possibility to avoid Nikita Plaksin. He simply has to become Russian. If this is done I’d also advise him to change his family name :-)
|(10) Posted by Valery Gurov [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 18:25]|
|(11) Posted by Joost de Heer [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 19:09]|
This is an open judging. Initial judgement isn't binding too, if there are significant differences in the judge's scores, the score can be re-evaluated. If V. Semenenko is found to favour his brother, he could be dismissed as judge. But this should not be done in advance.
If A. Semenenko will be banned from this competition: Jorge Lois composes a lot with Jorge Kapros and Roberto Osorio. I'd say that Kapros and Osorio should be banned from this competition too.
About Plaksin: His scoring for the FIDE albums indicates his dislike for proofgames, and this dislike is nation-independent (example: FIDE album 1992-1994, H24). So me becoming Russian to get favourable judging from Plaksin is useless. It's irrelevant for me anyway, I do not want to be in the FIDE album.
|(12) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 21:31]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-20]|
This is kind of offtopic but I found it interesting anyway:
Russian favorite Yevgeny Plushenko lost to American Evan Lysacek in single figure skating yesterday at Vancouver Olympic. It brought some interesting information on how the event is being judged now. Being a very artistic sport, it's very subjective to judging(chess problems comes to mind).The current system was developed after multiple corruption allegations and scandals.
There are 9 judges now. First, computer randomly takes away two scores. Another two(minimum and maximum) are removed afterword. The rest five makes the final score. If computer has chosen differently, Plushenko could be a winner.
I am sure there is some scientific research behind this system. It's a popular sport with big money involved. Still, I was very surprised to learn about the system.
|(13) Posted by Valery Gurov [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 21:45]|
I absolutely trust V.Semenenko as to the judge. But I as know that between points 3 and 3,5 are not present any notable difference...
|(14) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 23:03]|
In the last WCCI I.Averbakh gave 4 points to practically all Moscow studies. The differences in the judges’ scores were significant. And there were protests. They didn’t change anything. I was thinking hard where’s the logic in the decision of PCCC to appoint a twin-brother. Here it is: “The brother can’t give better scores than I.Averbakh!”
|(15) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 06:16]; edited by Siegfried Hornecker [10-02-21]|
Vladimir Tyapkin assumed:
This is kind of offtopic
Well, let's make a quiz from this to prove that it couldn't be less offtopic. An article contains this information:
[..] For many years [XXX] was always made chairman of the committee appointed to prepare or revise the programmes for the figure skating championship contests; and his skating library comprises many volumes, books in various languages, magazine and newspaper articles, diagrams, pictures, etc.
His chess library is one of the three or four largest in this country, embracing some unique specimens and many valuable manuscripts. He has a large collection of music for violin and piano, the former instrument being an special favorite with him [..]
Who was XXX? He was, as a hint, 67 years old when the article was published.
Solution (mark text to see):
Eugene B. Cook
The quoted article was written in 1898 by F.M. Teed and reprinted in Grondijs' NRU
|(16) Posted by Ian Shanahan [Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 17:32]|
Amazing Siegfried - a marvellous *topical* coincidence!
|(17) Posted by Peter Gvozdjak [Monday, Feb 22, 2010 21:28]|
at the congress it was promised to enable to submit entries electronically. however, there is no such option in the announcement. a question to subcommittee members who might read this: is it allowed or not? give some details, please.
|(18) Posted by Guy Sobrecases [Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 12:15]; edited by Guy Sobrecases [10-02-24]|
Considering the tourneys that I judged, suppose that one finds that 75%(!!) of Prizes are awarded to fairy problems.
Considering the tourneys judged by Valery GUROV, suppose that one finds that 75% (!!) of Prizes are awarded to Russian composers.
Sergiy, if you conclude that I show favouritism to the fairy world, and Valery to his fellow countrymen, I think I'll disagree with you.
Facts always lie.
|(19) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 13:19]|
Facts never lie, but they tend to be incomplete and
open to interpretation. In the example you give, the
first thing I would ask is: Were there significantly
more Russian studies already *entering*? Also it would
be conceivable that Russian studies *are* better in
average since they are cultivated since ages. (No
insult to rest of world implied :-)
In general, the old adage of never trusting a statistic
that you haven't faked yourself applies. And I would
give the Semenenkos the benefit of doubt unless
strong evidence suggest otherwise.
|(20) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 19:04]|
‘Fairy’ Guy, I cannot make any conclusions about favouritism of the composers who work in the problems genres because my knowledge there is not far from zero. Statistics are sometimes tricky and they cannot be reliable for drawing conclusions. One has to ‘know the kitchen’ inside.
Maybe the situation is not that bad in the problems world as it is in studies. Anyway, judges cannot be allowed to give scores to their countrymen in the WCCI. There were precedents in the previous WCCI and other tourneys.
And I am not saying that everyone favours his countrymen. There are many honest judges. But there are some who always help their mates as well as some revengeful countrymen.
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