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|(1) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Thursday, Aug 29, 2019 13:46]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [19-08-30]|
The Belen Theme..... in a selfmate?!
The Belen Theme: When the Black King moves from c1 to d3 and is mated by 0-0-0.
Tim Krabbe's #253 has plenty more information, including a few problems. Amongst the directmates, there was a single helpmate.
But I wondered.....had it ever been done with a selfmate?!
Of course, 0-0-0 gets White mated instead of Black.
I wasn't sure if this had ever been done before, so I made my own problem out of it.
(= 8+6 )
Has this ever been done before?
|(2) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Thursday, Aug 29, 2019 23:42]|
You can search the PDB this way:
g='s#'and position='wKe1 wTa1 sKc1'
Only 3 problems are found but none is
checkmating by castling.
|(3) Posted by Michael McDowell [Thursday, Aug 29, 2019 23:55]|
You could polish it a bit. A 12-piece S#5 setting is possible.
As regards the name, the Wettstein theme would seem more appropriate, given that Markus Wettstein appears to have composed the earliest example in 1968.
|(4) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Friday, Aug 30, 2019 01:52]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [19-08-30]|
@Michael I'm assuming that you mean that I can get rid of the two White pawns, but I'm not seeing it. Or have you found a different way of getting rid of the WN on b1?
And while, yes, it should be called the Weinstein theme technically, it might never be popularly called so because since Tim Krabbe of all people called it the Belen theme, it's gonna stick for awhile.
Also, Krabbe mentioned some talk about a Valladao-Belen. Since I haven't found anything of the like, I made my own
(= 11+7 )
Solution: 1. Nbxc3+-Getting out check with check Kc2 2. a8=Q/R/B/N-Waiting b5-Attempting to capture the knight as to allow an escape 3. axb6 e.p.-The only defense Kd3 4. O-O-O#
A shabby problem though. A bad key for starters (ahahaha!), but it's the only thing that I could think of to avoid duals. Additionally, the promoted piece does nothing. This is the best economy that I could find. I'm sure that something much better can be done.
I will not be surprised if duals exist in my #4.
|(5) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Friday, Aug 30, 2019 04:05]; edited by seetharaman kalyan [19-08-30]|
|(6) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Friday, Aug 30, 2019 09:47]|
@Rewan & Olaf - Captain Obvious says that the last move
of Black in a s# can't be O-O-O since it can't be forced :-)
(I even dimly recall there was a SCHWALBE problem - Keym? - asking
which moves are unforcable.)
|(7) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Friday, Aug 30, 2019 13:42]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [19-08-30]|
@Hauke Well it COULD be forced if it was a reflexmate or a maximummer. :-)
I made this reflexmate, my first one ever actually, awhile ago that I'm just now sharing for the first time.
WTM, Black-Only r#3
(= 6+7 )
Solution: 1. Kd6+ Be6 2. Ba4+ Nx6 3. Bb4 0-0-0# or 2... Nd7 3. Bc7 Bc5#
I'm not sure if you can actually set it so only side has the reflexmate stipulation in a real problem, but this scheme can only work with that stipulation!
Also, Michael, I managed to create a 3-mover Belen selfmate that has just 12 pieces! The mechanism is different of course.
(= 8+4 )
|(8) Posted by Michael McDowell [Friday, Aug 30, 2019 15:11]|
Much more economical timewise, but you need to remove WPb3 to force 1.Bc2+.
|(9) Posted by Michael McDowell [Saturday, Aug 31, 2019 11:00]|
Just a thought, but in a selfmate the castling move can be quiet.
(= 6+4 )
1.Bc2+ 2.Qc3+ 3.O-O-O (or wSb1 and wPc2 replacing b1 and c4 if you prefer)
|(10) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Saturday, Aug 31, 2019 15:41]|
Thanks for the tip Michael. Although I like your s#3 with a silent castling, iI must say thst it does not fit the Belen Theme as the BK is not forced to from dc1 to d3, but I’m sure that you are aware of this,
Also, just to reproduce your tip in a diagram:
(= 7+4 )
I don’t see how it could possibly be any more economic than this, due to the need to protect the the b2 square in such a way that it doesn’t interfere with the mating net,
|(11) Posted by Michael McDowell [Saturday, Aug 31, 2019 17:10]|
But the only reason the king goes to d3 in a directmate is that castling must be the mating move. In a selfmate there's no particular reason why it should go to d3. If you are going to say that the idea is transferable between genres then as long as the black king starts between the king and rook and White's final move is castling that would seem to be sufficient.
|(12) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Saturday, Aug 31, 2019 18:43]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [19-08-31]|
Well, in my opinion, it would make sense to be consistent to have the BK go from c1 to d3 in order for to count as the Belen theme. That’s how it is in the difectmates and that helpmate that is seen in Krabbe’s #253. So long as that it done, and White’s last move is castlling, it counts as a Belen to me,
|(13) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Wednesday, Sep 4, 2019 10:11]; edited by Siegfried Hornecker [19-09-04]|
The moves that can't be forced are from what I know (without looking at the problem) castling, any specific promotion, any line piece moving (not capturing) to a corner if there is at least one empty square between it.
That is by White:
Promotion 2x2x4 (a8,h8) + 6x3x4 = 16 + 72 = 88 (total 90)
B 4x6 = 24 (total 114)
R 8x6 = 48 (total 162)
Q = B + R = 72 (total 234)
The same is by Black.
So a total of 468 moves is not enforcible. Illegal moves not counted, obviously.
Any capturing move is enforcible, also any move to an adjacent square, also any en passant capture, any move that does not go to a corner by a line piece, any pawn single or double step.
However, it should be noted that if pawn promotions count as SINGLE moves instead of 4 moves each, they ARE enforcible, since a general promotion can be enforced, but not a specific one. This would reduce the total to 420 blaze it!
|(14) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Sunday, Sep 8, 2019 16:22]|
The Valladao Balen was actually discussed (and finally realized) by Truly Yours in that online forum - but it seems that it was so to say 'flooded' - messages there are online only from 17 on. Another source was a little article i wrote in portuguese - but its also offline for the while.
ZK "The Kibitzer's Cafe" 2004 8/3p2P1/1Pp5/2P1P3/3B2P1/2p5/p7/RNk1K3 #4
*** The theme will require at least four moves, here the promotion is justified immediately, and there's no the habitual 'promotion dual' Q/B or Q/R; Black King having 2 flights before and after the key is a point, because is the secondary alternative c1-c2-b2 path that will allow this single promotion feature, and not the required c1-c2-d3 jump... Don't notice the duals in the 1...axb1 veriation: they're irrelevant. That pawn a2 is there mainly to assure correction with a relativelly light setting.
|(15) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Sunday, Sep 8, 2019 18:02]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [19-09-08]|
Thanks for that Zalmen!
Just to produce a diagram if it here:
Zalmen Kornin "The Kibitzer's Cafe" 2004
(= 9+5 )
How did you find that in the chessgames Kibitxer's Cafe? I have never found a way to look at the given pages from there that Tim Krabbe references.
Also, your problem is a jewel compared to my halfwitted Valladao-Belen! Very pretty indeed!
|(16) Posted by Rajendiran Raju [Sunday, Sep 8, 2019 18:23]|
Rewan you may try this Russia superproblem selfmate saturday puzzles....
|(17) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Sunday, Sep 8, 2019 22:09]|
In my opinion Zalmen Kornin's problem is only a half Valladao because the black pawn is not forced to move a double step.
|(18) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Sunday, Sep 8, 2019 22:59]|
There's a threat (3.Rxa2+) and double step is a defence.
|(19) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Monday, Sep 9, 2019 04:56]|
Thanks for that Rajendiram!
Olaf, since do not consider ZK’s problem a true Valladao-Belen, do you consdier mine a true one, or no? Also, it’d be 2/3, bot 1/2, ;D!
|(20) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Tuesday, Sep 10, 2019 00:10]; edited by Olaf Jenkner [19-09-10]|
Sorry, of course it is a 100% Valladao, I overlooked the threat.
In some problems a black pawn has to move and fortunately it can do a double step but a short step shows the same game.
Rewan, which problem do you mean?
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