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MatPlus.Net Forum Competitions WCCI 2013-2015
 
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(1) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Sunday, Oct 11, 2015 16:25]

WCCI 2013-2015


I am wondering what is the reasoning behind the rule that participants have to send at least 4 problems per section? I think that problemists like to participate to this tournament even if they did not compose 4 problems during this time period. The rule that all problems with score 8 or more are automatically qualified for FIDE album is motivation for everyone to participate. This rule that enforces at least 4 problems means that some bad problems will be sent to tournament just to fulfill the requirement of minimum 4 problems per section.

This rule implies some other issues. For example what if someone sent 4 problems but one of them is anticipated. Will the other three problems be eliminated or not?

In my opinion this rule should be changed and problemists should be allowed to send less than 4 problems per section.
 
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(2) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Sunday, Oct 11, 2015 19:26]

I could not agree more!
This way we may not see best problems of period at all,from less productive but more artistic composers. I would be more proud with my problem as a WC then myself as a composer.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Sunday, Oct 11, 2015 21:35]

The composers with less than 4 problems/studies have no chance to become winners in the WCCI. If they want to see their compositions in the Album, they should send them to the Album judges. The WCCI is a different competition and any connection with the Album is inappropriate. As a judge in the WCCI I don't want to waste my time on composers who couldn't even publish 4 compositions in three years!
 
   
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(4) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Sunday, Oct 11, 2015 21:55]

The rule that all problems with score 8 or more are automatically qualified for FIDE album should be cancelled. It's time to admit that the decision to mix the Album with the WCCI was a mistake.
 
   
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(5) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Sunday, Oct 11, 2015 22:54]; edited by Nikola Predrag [15-10-11]

"... I don't want to waste my time on composers who couldn't even publish 4 compositions in three years! I don't want to waste my time on composers who couldn't even publish 4 compositions in three years!...

What an ugly statement! You agree to see 4 poor problems but you'd waste time seeing 3 excellent problems? And even single masterpiece could score more total points for WCCI than 4 merely "correct" problems worth barely 0,5 per judge.
Some composers compose in several sections and do not want to publish trash, just to make 4 in all of them.

Discrimination is the word for giving 2 chances and 2 sets of judges to some problems pretending for FA, while forbidding that to the others.
And such a decision is brought in the end of the cycle?! Well, there's still time to publish some trash if someone wants to defeat the discriminatory proposition :-(
Is that what you're suggesting Sergiy?
 
 
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(6) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Sunday, Oct 11, 2015 23:08]

It is quite possible for a composer to place high in WCCI even with 3 topclass problems.
 
   
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(7) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 00:31]

@Sergiy

I think that this rule will make you waste even more time. As Nikola mentioned since there are couple of months left some composers will publish some trash just to send problems. If they do not have time to send them to the magazine they can just post them to some forum.

I agree with you. FIDE ALBUM and WCCI should not be mixed. It's not fair that some people get two chances and some of them get only one chance for scoring. And once again what will happen if someone sent 6 problems but three are anticipated. Now if three of them are top classes problems and they scored a lot of points . Ar you going to disqualify all problems because now there are less than 4 problems?

Also, if the goal was to save judges time then it would be better to request at least 50 problems per section. I guess there will be no more than 3 composers in each section so there will be less problems to check. However, will you get real WCCI winners then because you saved judges time? I do not think so. I know composers who are publishing lots of low quality problems. On the other hand there composers who do not compose too many problems but all of their problems are of excellent quality.

By the way, just to be clear. I do have 4 or more problems in all sections that I am planning to participate. However I raised this issue because this rule to require at least 4 problems does not make any sense to me.
 
   
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(8) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 06:31]

I could not agree more with both Miograd and Nikola. Although I like the idea of the FIDE album, I have little interest in the concept of WCCI. In the previous WCCI cycle, I participated for the first time and in one of the sections I sent only 2 problems. I had a few more that I could have sent to fill the gap, but they were of much lower quality. Instead of burdening the judges with low quality problems, I preferred to follow the FIDE album suggestion of sending only good quality problems.

This time, I have the same dilemma: Spam the competition with low quality problems because of one or two that I consider worth submitting or not send any problems at all? I have not decided yet, but right now I favor the latter choice.
 
   
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(9) Posted by Dmitri Turevski [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 07:30]

 QUOTE 
For example what if someone sent 4 problems but one of them is anticipated. Will the other three problems be eliminated or not?

According to the rules, the anticipated problem scores 0 points and can be used to calculate the sum of composers 4 best problems scores in the section.
 
   
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(10) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 08:39]; edited by Darko Šaljić [15-10-12]

@Sergiy Youre time is so much important? Man like you should not be a judge, but it out of topic and I dont want to waste my time..
 
 
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(11) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 08:43]

@Dmitri

But my point was this. Just for example you sent 4 problems where one is anticipated. I did not have 4 problems to send. I only had 3 good quality problems better than your 3 problems that are not anticipated. Now because you sent 4th problem that is anticipated you will be ranked on WCCI and I will not be on the list at all. This is not fair. Actually problemists are encouraged to send publish anticipated problems. Here are the steps that anyone can do:

1) For example, I published only 3 problems during this time period. On Decembar 31st I come to this forum and publish under my name some problem just to be able to fulfill the number of required problems. I send problems on 1st January to the WCCI. On January 2nd someone finds out that my problem is anticipated by someone. Now I'll participate on WCCI with 3 problems but some other problemists with 3 good problems will not be able to participate. It does not make any sense to me.

In my opinion this rule will lead people to publish tones of junk problems just to be able to make WCCI. Personally I'll never do that (by the way I did not participate the previous WCCI because I did not have enough problems). However I can see that someone will do this (and to be honest I think they have rights to do this because of dummy WCCI rule that at least 4 problems should be send per section).
 
   
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(12) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 08:50]

Someone might post here many random diagrams with various stipulations, adding to each one his name and any absurd "play" faking as though it was the "solution". Then he sends these "problems" for WCCI.
Would these problems score 0 points since they have no solution or they would be rejected as not being chess problems?
How much such a scenario should be refined to make these "problems" acceptable as "incorrect" but still "worth" 0 points to calculate for WCCI?
If there are rules for "anticipated" problems, there are also the rules for the incorrect problems.
Too absurd scenario?
 
   
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(13) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 11:49]

The more I think about it, the more I agree that this rule is unfortunate. Not only could it encourage composers to make some crap problems at the end of the year, it could encourage them to hurry to publish a new problem instead of working on it and publish an improved version at a later stage.

There could be several reasons why a composer hasn't published four good problems during a three-year period. Some possible reasons:
- Being new to composing
- Being new to the genre
- Taking a break from composing
- Having published lots of joint problems, but few individual ones
etc.

I didn't participate in WCCI 2010-2012, simply because I didn't know about it at that point. If I had known, I would probably have participated - with two studies. I published four studies in 2012. Two of them were my very first efforts as a study composer, and not something I would consider sending to WCCI. However, I am still happy about the other two, and I would be interested to see how they would have fared. In the current system, I would be forced to send all four, and maybe get 0.5 points from all the judges for two of them. Is that really what the judges want to see?

Of course, even with the 2010-2012 rules, I would be better off sending all four rather than sending two, if all I cared about was to maximize my total score. In order to avoid that, I have a suggestion (sorry if this has been considered before): Allow composers to send less than four compositions, and automatically receive 3 points for each composition less than four (equivalent to receiving 1 point from each judge). This means that not sending a problem/study is better than sending a bad one, while you still have to send at least four in order to have realistic chances to win.
 
 
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(14) Posted by Dmitri Turevski [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 12:21]

@Miodrag

Yes, your message was quite clear, I only wanted to emphasize that technically the new rule doesn't introduce ambiguity in ranking.

I don't know the rationale behind this new rule, I can only speculate.

Problems worth 0.5/1.0 or 3.5/4.0 points do not waste judges time at all, they are easiest to evaluate. It's problems in between that take most time for consideration.

Consider the Kostas case - he submitted 2 good problems to the Retro section of the 2010-12 WCCI clearly not to take part in the competition, but, as he admits, to get a second chance in FIDE Album selection (and he succeeded - one of the problems scored 8.0).

Perhaps this rule is intended exactly for this case? To free the judges from work with good problems that however are not related to this competition? And, hey, it's working! Kostas is favoring the choice of not sending the problems this time.

I should say again - this is 100% my personal guesswork, to get the real answer this question should be addressed to the WCCI subcommittee delegates.

I have no idea about the change in the amount of published junk resulted by the introduction of this rule. Will it be noticable at all amid the junk published regardless of this rule?
 
   
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(15) Posted by Branislav Djurašević [Monday, Oct 12, 2015 15:01]; edited by Branislav Djurašević [15-10-12]

Too many sport elements have entered the chess problem world. I do not care about points, titles, or competitions. Let us bring back the chess problems to the artists. A chess problem is a form of art! I would like to look at some problems and studies as paintings on the wall. The chess problems should be quite the opposite from the sport rules, where only the result matters and is remembered. Here, the only rule that matters is that the good compositions should be remembered and reproduced. Anyone who would like the opposite, i.e. to compete, is free to play OTB chess as much as they please. Should we measure the art with points?
 
   
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(16) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Tuesday, Oct 13, 2015 00:28]

This speech about art is pathetic because sport elements don't harm chess composition at all. Anyone who doesn't want to compete is free not to compete. He can put his problems on the wall and enjoy them. But if someone wants to participate in the WCCI, then, he should respect the rules and send in 4 compositions.
Competitions are maybe the only chance to keep chess composition alive and make it interesting to new generations.
 
   
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(17) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Tuesday, Oct 13, 2015 02:03]

Sport elements should be fair.
One problem has 2 different ways to FA points and the other one has not. That's not a fair sport!
And as long as one problem could score more points for WCCI than four other problems together, it is absurd to encourage quantity and to discourage quality.
When you put the results and rankings as the main purpose of a competition, the final score is decisive.
 
   
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(18) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Tuesday, Oct 13, 2015 08:36]

I am for fair sport too and I dissaprove selection to the FA through WCCI.
Where do you see preference of quantity to quality? Are you paranoic? Four compositions - is not a quantity. It's just an evidence that a composer is willing to participate in the WCCI and not just get a feedback or a ticker to the FA. So, as a judge I want to see good will of a participant and his 4 best compositions.
 
   
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(19) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Tuesday, Oct 13, 2015 08:48]

@Sergiy


Let's forget about earning points for FA. Even without this rule it does not make any sense to require at least 4 problems by composer per section. How did you (or whoever came up with this idea) come up with number of 4 problems? As Nikola stated before it's possible to get more points with one excellent problem than with 4 average problems. Why should someone with 4 bad problems to be ranked on the WCCI list but someone with 3 excellent problem will be eliminated from the competition. It does not make any sense. What if someone spent a year to compose perfect problem (let's assume that he is going to get 4 points by all judges). On the other hand someone who is producing lots of low quality problems sent 4 problems that will not score more then 0.5 to 1.0 points per problem. Now the second problemist who does not care (or is not capable) to compose high quality problem will be ranked on WCCI and can state that he is better problemists than someone who is excellent composer but is not able to participate because he did not compose 4 problems for the specific section during three year time period. It does not make any sense.
 
   
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(20) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Tuesday, Oct 13, 2015 09:13]

That's a competition. Football players are not allowed to come on the field without boots. Why should composers be allowed to do it?
And let's not talk fairy tales about composers with 3 excellent compositions. People prepare for competitions and those who couldn't compose 4 problems are not prepared to participate. They can be successful in another competition or in the FA and prove this way they are good composers.
 
   
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MatPlus.Net Forum Competitions WCCI 2013-2015