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MatPlus.Net Forum General Has the record for most mutual checks been beaten yet since 2013?
 
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(1) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, May 8, 2019 04:46]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [19-05-08]

Has the record for most mutual checks been beaten yet since 2013?


To the extent of my knowledge, the record for the longest series of mutual checks with promoted pieces is 54, given by Tim Krabbe is 2013, Journal Entry #387: https://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/diary.htm

[Title "Alexey Khanyan, 2013"]
(= 16+12 )


1. Qb6+ Rc5+ 2. Qd6+ Nxd6+ 3. Bf6+ Nxf6+ 4. Nfg4+ Qf2+ 5. Nhf3+ Kd5+ 6. e4+ Nfxe4+ 7. Nf6+ Nxf6+ 8. Be4+ Nfxe4+ 9. Qf5+ Nxf5+ 10. Rad6+ Nexd6+ 11. Bc4+ Nxc4+ 12. Re5+ Nxe5+ 13. Nc4+ Qfd2+ 14. Nxd2+ Rf3+ 15. Nxf3+ Qd2+ 16. Ncxd2+ Rc4+ 17. Bxc4+ Qxc4+ 18. Ne4+ Bd2+ 19. Qxd2+ Nd3+ 20. Qxd3+ Nd4+ 21. Nf6+ Qxf6+ 22. Qf5+ e5+ 23. Nxe5+ Rf3+ 24. Nxf3+ Qe5+ 25. Nxe5+ Nf3+ 26. Qd4+ Qxd4+ 27. Qe4+ Qxe4+

But that was way back in 2013. Does anybody know if it has been beaten yet?

Also, any word of a new record for without promoted pieces? This is the current record, that I know of, also given by Tim Krabbe: https://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess/check.html

[Title "G. Ponzetto Torre i Cavallo, 1993 "]
(= 7+16 )


1.Nh2+ f1=N+ 2.Rxf1+ gxf1=N+ 3.Ngxf1+ Bg5+ 4.Qxg5+ Bg2+ 5.Nf3+ exf3+ 6.Kd3+ Nc5+ 7.Qxc5+ Re3+ 8.Nxe3+ c1=N+ 9.Qxc1+ d1=Q+ 10.Qxd1+ e1=N+ 11.Qxe1+ Bf1+ 12.Nxf1+ f2+ 13.Ne3+ f1=Q+ 14.Qxf1+ Qxf1+ 15.Nxf1+ Re3+ 16.Nxe3+ b1=Q+ 17.Rxb1+ axb1=Q+ 18.Nc2+ Nf2+ 19.Bxf2+
 
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(2) Posted by Steffen Slumstrup Nielsen [Wednesday, May 8, 2019 11:42]

I am confident that the record by Ponzetto has not been broken. We would have heard. A masterpiece, I think.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, May 8, 2019 13:32]

Very true. It would take a lot of work to beat it.
 
   
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(4) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, May 8, 2019 20:29]; edited by Hauke Reddmann [19-05-08]

Not wanting to waste a thread :-), what about mutual
crosschecks? Any takers on my position
from f 101/1991 (Nr.BS9) (10 checks)*? Is there
a difference to "merely discovered checks" (that
record I saw somewhere too, but don't remember)?

Hauke

* Somewhere at the bottom of
http://bambam42.de/problem/problem3.html
 
   
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(5) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, May 8, 2019 21:09]

What do you mean by mutual crosschecks? And if you want the record for mutual discovered checks, with and without promoted pieces, see my answer here on CSE: https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/8982/theoretical-limit-for-the-number-of-consecutive-checks/15497#15497

Also, we finally meet again at last!
 
   
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(6) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, May 8, 2019 21:11]

Also, I’m not sure what I am supposed to do with the positions in your link.
 
   
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(7) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Thursday, May 9, 2019 10:32]; edited by Hauke Reddmann [19-05-09]

Just watch it in awe :-)

Difference: A discovered check is allowed to capture
the checking piece. A crosscheck may not. (Usage may vary!)
So the Khanyan examples on ChessSE are the record for discovered
checks w/o or with promo, but not for cross-checks.

Also (I'm too lazy to answer at ChessSE :-) I once did a
handwaving proof that no infinite sequence is possible.
I'm no mathematician and give only a sketch, plus some
fairy ways to overcome it. Feel free to fill in the details,
it's just horribly unelegant case-checking (no pun intended).

- Convince yourself that in a series of mutual checks
only one K check is possible, since after that, the
both K stand wrong. (Breaks down if Nightriders are
allowed.)
- Also, there obviously can't be a capture in an
infinite repetition. (Breaks down under Circe rules.)
- Since there are only finitely many batterys, you will
have to "recycle" them. Again, watch my f101 problem
to see how it can be done.
- The nasty part of the proof is now to show that the
checking units will be forced ever closer to the space
between the K, and somewhen space runs out. (Breaks
down when using a camel. The knights problem here is that
he switches colors.)

EDIT: Oh, right, you did that already on ChessSE :-)


Hauke
 
   
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(8) Posted by Steffen Slumstrup Nielsen [Thursday, May 9, 2019 12:39]

Your examples, Hauke, reminds me of my recent attempts to create a "chain-pin" in studies. Piece A is pinned by piece B that is pinned by piece C that is.... My (non-mathematical) conclusion was that such a chain stops at "E", regardless of the size of the board.

For instance White: Kc8, Rc6, Bb2, d7 Black: Kf6 Rc3 Be6, where pd7 is piece "A" and Bb2 is piece "E".

(= 4+3 )

 
   
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(9) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Thursday, May 9, 2019 21:14]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [19-05-09]

Seeing as how you define a crosscheck as a sequence of captureless mutual discovered checks, I got something for you. You say you found ten? Well I found 11 all by myself! I made a few examples, but this one is my favorite due to how jam packed the pieces are. So far, 12 has eluded me.

(= 13+10 )


My challenge is for you to find that 11 captureless move sequence!

I do have examples if you want one, but those are for after someone solves my challenge.
 
   
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(10) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Thursday, May 9, 2019 21:34]

For without promoted pieces, that can be seen in Khanyan’s no promoted pieces example.
 
   
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(11) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Thursday, May 9, 2019 23:17]

Also, Steffen, what about an ABSOLUTE pin-chain?
 
   
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(12) Posted by Steffen Slumstrup Nielsen [Friday, May 10, 2019 12:48]

You mean as opposed to a partial pin? I guess the chain stops at D then.
 
 
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(13) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Friday, May 10, 2019 12:59]

While the Khanyan is brilliant (the use of Bf4+ to generate a new battery),
since this bishop is captured, it is no crosscheck.

@Steffen - Funny, I had the same idea, but my position was
(= 3+4 )

 
   
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(14) Posted by Steffen Slumstrup Nielsen [Friday, May 10, 2019 13:58]

I tried to make a study with such long chain-pins. It seemed quite promising. But then I learned that Korolkov/Troitzky already did this 1938.

http://gadycosteff.com/cql/comment.html
(the study is at the bottom of the page)
 
   
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(15) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Friday, May 10, 2019 14:16]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [19-05-10]

Perhaps you could post it here please? Due to personal reasons,I am unable to acsess the site.

Also, my challenge for finding the 11 crosschecks in my above position is still up.

And I said in the Khanyan ones that the first 7 moves are crosschecks, not all of them.
 
   
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(16) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Friday, May 10, 2019 14:36]; edited by Siegfried Hornecker [19-05-10]

As requested, the study from Gady Costeff's website.

(= 7+6 )

Troitzky & Korolkov
Shakhmaty v SSSR, March 1938
(correction: Harold van der Heijden, EBUR 2004)
White to move and win

Positon after 4.Rd8:
(= 6+6 )


Solution:
1.Rb4 Rh4 2.c4! R:c4 3.Bb5! Bd7! 4.Rd8! (see diagram) 4.-b1Q 5.R:d7+ Kc3 6.R:c4+ wins
 
   
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(17) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Friday, May 10, 2019 14:50]

This is cool!
 
   
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(18) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Saturday, Jun 1, 2019 01:45]

Hey Hauke, I just found something cool. The 11 ply sequence I made was cross-checks for discovered checks. However, if you want general checks, with not all of them having to to be discovered, I have found 14! See below. And this is with promotion. But the pawn could easily be promoted already and move to the checking promotion square. So this matrix works for both categories.

(= 12+13 )



1. c8=B+ Kd6+ 2. Ne7+ Rb6+ 3. Nc6+ Bc5+ 4. Bb4+ Rd2+ 5. Rd3+ Nfd4+ 6. Rg6+ Ne6+ 7. Rg4+ Ng3+

This is a legal position: 1. g4 f5 2. h4 fxg4 3. f4 g5 4. a4 b5 5. axb5 gxh4 6. d4 c5 7. dxc5 e5 8. e4 exf4

The white c-pawn is seen in my diagram and all pawns promote into what is seen on the board.
 
   
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(19) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Saturday, Jun 1, 2019 09:48]

Hmmmm, maybe it is time to compile a big list of mutual check records...
a) w/o promo
b) with promo
c) illegal
A) any
B) battery only
1) any
2) no capture
I) any
II) forced
alpha) ... :-)

Hauke
 
   
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(20) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Saturday, Jun 1, 2019 15:30]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [19-06-01]

Indeed. I have already done some work on that. See these Chess Stack Exchange Links: https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/5363/longest-forced-sequence-that-ends-with-checkmate-and-every-move-is-a-check/24404#24404
https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/4963/longest-sequence-of-mutually-forced-moves
https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/24033/a-position-in-which-checkmate-is-forced-obligatory
https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/8789/what-is-the-longest-known-sequence-of-forced-moves-leading-to-a-checkmate-for-on

Other people's answers also provide context.


Also, in forced there are further categories of having multiple legal moves available and only one legal move.

And illegal would be a little hard to define, but we can already split it into illegal placement and more pieces than normal.

And then there's is discovered checks and regular ones.

And in a position and in a sequence.

And if the sequence ends in checkmate, stalemate (last move not a check ofc), or neither.

What defines a battery?

Tell you what, I'll publish a book on it in ten years or something.
 
   
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Has the record for most mutual checks been beaten yet since 2013?