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MatPlus.Net Forum Selfmates Andrej Selivanov - The Urals Problemist 2008
 
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(1) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 23:20]; edited by Miodrag Mladenović [09-03-30]

Andrej Selivanov - The Urals Problemist 2008


I just saw this wonderful S#4 by Andrej. I was solving it myself and I did enjoy a lot.

(= 12+12 )

S#4

1.e7! [2.Rf5+ Kd6 3.e8B+ Ke6 4.Bd7+ Bxd7#]
1...d2 2.Rb5+ Kd6 3.e8S+ Ke6 4.Qb3+ Bxb3#
1...gxf6 2.Rd6+ Kxd6 3.e8R+ Kd7 4.Bc6+ Bxc6#
1...Qxf7 2.Rc5+ Kd6 3.e8Q+ Qe7/Qxf8 4.Qd7+ Bxd7#

AUW in combination with white BR battery play.
 
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(2) Posted by Kevin Begley [Monday, Mar 30, 2009 07:28]

Miodrag,
At the risk of looking niave, or perhaps much worse, I'll just ask...
Is "wonderfool" an unintentional mispelling (for "wonderful"), or have I overlooked some humor?

I certainly hope the former, but to be honest, I can barely keep my eyes open, and I'm not sure that I managed to correctly locate both kings in the diagram -- I will have another look tomorrow... yet, somehow this unfortunate spelling error jumped at me.

That is the benefit of exhaustion, I suppose.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Mar 30, 2009 08:34]

@(2)
Kevin, thank you for correcting me. English is not my native language so I do make non intentional mistakes from time to time.
 
   
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(4) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Monday, Mar 30, 2009 08:58]

Thanks, Misha, for your comment. In this problem also realised new battery theme for selfmates "consecutive playing of different white batteries". Playing the battery the Rook d5 and the Bishop е4, then a Pawn е7 and the Bishop f8. Four variation with white allumwandlung.
 
   
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(5) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Mar 30, 2009 11:33]

Well, in the light of modern interpretation of fools (see "Fool on the Hill" by the Beatles or "A Fool's Errand" by Cliff Johnson) fools may not be fools anymore.

Even with some thousands being created, each AUW still is special on its own.
 
   
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(6) Posted by Guy Sobrecases [Monday, Mar 30, 2009 12:50]

Yes, Siegfried, I agree with you. This is an inspired Wandlung selfmate.

And as you talk about songs, let us celebrate the Andrej's party with these two nice ones of Lesley Gore.
"It's my party, and I cry if I want to" & "She's a fool, she has his love but treats him cruel"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JNHokhWSdA
 
   
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(7) Posted by Kevin Begley [Monday, Mar 30, 2009 14:40]

Good morning to a wonderful problem indeed!
Nice work Andrej.
 
 
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(8) Posted by Torsten Linß [Tuesday, Feb 4, 2014 22:33]

Constructionally it may be an impressive achievement. Aesthetically it's horror. wQ is used only to force mate in a single line of play, wRa7 is used only to pin bPb7 when wB is sacrificed on c6, also wSh8 is badly exploited. In my opinion these are too many concessions to force this task.

I consider chess compositions to be an *art*. Its not only about what is achieved, but also about the means (economic use of force, for example). In this problem too many aspects of art are thwarted.
 
 
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(9) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Wednesday, Feb 5, 2014 00:08]

The idea is aesthetically/artistically impressive. I'm happy that it was published so I could see it. Although being heavy and not economical, the construction succeeded to show it. I wouldn't too seriously comment the weaknesses of construction unless I could present a better one.
Problems without any idea or with a poor idea are aesthetically/artistically horrible.
 
   
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(10) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Feb 5, 2014 08:19]

You are both right, I would say.
 
   
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(11) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Feb 5, 2014 18:02]

The solution (unless threat) can be played by autoplayer in the PDB:

http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=probid=%27P1091373%27
 
 
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(12) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Feb 5, 2014 19:13]

@Torsten
Quote: "wQ is used only to force mate in a single line of play"

This is not completely true statement. The wQ does have three different roles:
1) It does play 4.Qb3+ in variation
2) Without wQ there would be no defense d2 at all. It is a very nice defense with opening f3-a3 line
3) Without wQ there would be no solution at all because 1...Qh1 will refute solution.
Personally my opinion is that idea is most important.

Also I have different view on economy. In my opinion until it's proven that some pieces can be removed by improving position we cannot say that problem has terrible economy. Especially if content of problem is very complicated. By the way what is definition for “economic use of force”?
In how many variations you think wQ should play in this problem in order to be economical use of wQ? Personally I think it’s not possible to define something like “economic use of force”. If there is no other way to achieve some idea then it’s economic position.
So back to this problem. I still think this is a great achievement.
 
   
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(13) Posted by Steven Dowd [Wednesday, Feb 5, 2014 20:08]

I am citing Miodrag here:

"In how many variations you think wQ should play in this problem in order to be economical use of wQ?"

That's an interesting question but I am unsure if there is an answer. Recently I started doing some work with Black queen minimals in selfmates, and one of the problems is getting an optimal working of the Black queen, instead of ending up with just having the BK driven around the board until the queen is forced to mate (that you often don't end up with model mates due to the great power of the queen is another problem, in my estimation). These are the "depends on" sort of answers, which no one will agree on. Like you, I thought the wQ was well-used. I have no idea how Andrej comes up with these positions of great thematic power.

"Personally I think it’s not possible to define something like “economic use of force”."

I think that is incorrect. It can be defined, the question is how well. Again, in a selfmate, we know the minimum amount of material that is needed to provide a certain mate. You can't show an Albino without at least two pieces to capture. Defining "uneconomic" is more difficult as it depends on the idea.

"If there is no other way to achieve some idea then it’s economic position."

I don't think this is true. If there is no other way to achieve some idea then it is an acceptable position, not an economic one. It's no different than having to "plug holes" in life. It's unattractive, but needed, unless you want the dam to break. But "uneconomic" and "good" are not opposites, or exclusive.

"So back to this problem. I still think this is a great achievement."

On this I agree a thousand fold. I have no idea how mere humans can find something of this magnitude.
 
   
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(14) Posted by Sven Hendrik Lossin [Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 00:53]

"If there is no other way to achieve some idea then it’s economic position."

I don't think this is true. If there is no other way to achieve some idea then it is an acceptable position, not an economic one. It's no different than having to "plug holes" in life. It's unattractive, but needed, unless you want the dam to break. But "uneconomic" and "good" are not opposites, or exclusive.

+1

Economic use of forces is one of several aspects like quality of key move, variety/complexity of play, mating position(s), selfmate specific content...
Andrejs selfmates usually show a content that is hard to achieve so that the other aspects are stepping behind in a way.

I do not think that Torsten's point is that this selfmate has no right to exist but I can understand somebody saying "the economic use of forces is not to my taste". And I can also understand that somebody who has to rate these kinds of problems ranks other problems higher because of that. That does not mean that it is possible to show it more economically.

I have several examples. P1263111 in the PDB gained a 2nd HM due to a "black dual". If the judge had written that the use of the wNh8 is too poor I would have understand his ranking but with that "black dual"-thing I am very unhappy because it does not affect the content in the slightest way. In the P1266607 in my opinion the unused Bf8 is not acceptable. Nevertheless the editor Petkov preferred this version to that one I wrote in the annotation.
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum Selfmates Andrej Selivanov - The Urals Problemist 2008