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MatPlus.Net Forum General FIDE Album 2013-15 - section D - studies - protest against result
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(41) Posted by Alain Villeneuve [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 16:18]

Speaking only of the 2# section (Mr Stojnić speciality), I see in "Annexe 1986-1988" (see above my comment n° 20) not less than 17 first prizes and 12 second prizes.

Do you think these 29 problems are not of "high quality" ?
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(42) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 16:45]; edited by Darko Šaljić [17-08-16]

Yes, they are not.
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(43) Posted by Alain Villeneuve [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 17:01]

Very clever reply. Did you even look at them ?
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(44) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 19:18]; edited by Darko Šaljić [17-08-16]

I know every Dragan's problem, and he is very, very good composer. We were close friends,
and in past time we shared compositions and ideas, and he often asked for my opinion even before publishing.
I have composed few good problems, and have only 2 in AF and 4 in anex or with 7.5 points, and I have no problem with it.
More than 50% 2movers in AF from 1990 until now is pure garbage and some of them have 8 or 9 points.
By the way, who are you?
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(45) Posted by Georgy Evseev [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 19:25]

I think that the last twist of this discussion shows that some judges do not understand what they are doing.
They think that they are giving points to the problems. This is a wrong approach.

If the judge asks himself: Should I give this problem 2-2.5-3 points, then he makes a mistake. The correct question is: Do I want to see this problem in Album? And different answers to this question under the current system are exactly translated to different marks. For example, 2.5 in reality means: "I am not sure, let other judges decide". So, 7.5 means that while no judge is against the problem, no one have said definite "yes" to it. If the judge intends to see the problem in the Album, he should give to it at least 3.0. So, to hear from the judge that "all 7.5 should be in the Album" is very strange. The judge knows the system of selection - he should vote for the problems he wants in the Album by his marks.
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(46) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 19:30]; edited by Juraj Lörinc [17-08-16]

This way of arguing quite diverts the discussion and is wrong, in my opinion. It can be safely said that not all high quality compositions even could enter FIDE Album, as there is only limited space there.

In all periods a selection had to be done and it was the responsibility of selected judges to do it. For my part, I can say from all my FIDE Album judging experience (fairies judge 98-00, 07-09, 13-15, director 04-06) that I really regret the fact that not all high quality problems can enter FIDE Album, even some of my favourites (I mean not my compositions, but favourites by others), but this is reality and rightly so.

Moreover, obtaining the 1st or the 2nd Prize does not guarantee high quality, although the correlation is high.

The key issue here is whether specific judgment is correct or not.

Speaking from the objective point of view, I'd like to mention principle "innocent unless proven guilty" (no proof of wrong judgment was given in my view) as well as the well known fact that even the most experienced experts often disagree on the view of specific compositions due to various reasons.

Speaking from my personal knowledge, I would also tend to support FIDE Album judge in the case because ... as far as I can tell, all of them willingly invest incredible amount of time into highly demanding and quite unpopular job of judging, with very little reward and ever repeating criticism, while in fact they do their best to select album-worthy works in their opinion.

"Opinion" is here quite important word. It is close to impossible to value chess composition objectively. Every judge brings its own knowledge, experience and standards into process. So it is rather important to have varied judging collegia, covering as much views as possible. This way it is possible to select really worthy compositions into best-of-best selection.

Edit: I have started writing my response after comment no 43, so it was a reaction to that one and previous ones.
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(47) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 20:24]; edited by Siegfried Hornecker [17-08-16]

@44 by Darko Šaljić

Alain Villeneuve composes studies, proof games and various problems. He is an experienced solver, member of the French solving team (and FM in Solving since 2008, as Kevin comments).
He has also written the reference endgame book "Les finales" (1982-84, 2nd ed. 1998) which has a third edition (2012).

I think he was also on the WCCC, but if we met then only briefly, as I don't remember talking to him.

The name always reminds me of some motorsport driver on Formula One GP, I think he is called Jacques Villeneuve. But the name is common, so probably there is no personal connection between them.
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(48) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 20:45]; edited by Darko Šaljić [17-08-16]

Thanks Siegfried for leting me know.I'm not sure that getleman is compentent in this topic. Maybe he is only Dragans fan.

Dont missunderstand me, I only say that fixing resalts and friendly judging in AF is common thing, and I agree in everything that Georgy wrote.
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(49) Posted by Alain Villeneuve [Wednesday, Aug 16, 2017 21:44]

Thank you Siegfried, but I am not sure the poor games given in "chess games com" will help people to know me ! I give you a better way : the wikipedia notice or best :

You may ask Martin Minsky for translation ! I do not compose problems, only trying to solve them, and compose little studies (see the 2 last WCCI and... the next one). By the way... sorry, Jacques is not from my family !!

I am not a "Dragan's fan" (sic). Unfortunately, I don't know him personally, but I admire him, because I saw very good problems from him. And, more important, I agree with his proposals.

Anyway, il is difficult for me ("competent" -- resic -- or not) to take seriously a man who seems to be sure that the problems from annexe 86-88 (including those from his "countryman" Marjan Kovačević) are not of "high quality". It is also an insult to my deceased friend Denis Blondel, who made a fantastic job to publish problems of high quality forgotten by judges.

And, once again, I ask that the points given for every study are published (just like it was in WCCI). As a ancient teacher, I never concealed the notes I gave to my pupils, even explaining to them why these notes were not higher.
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(50) Posted by Dragan Stojnić [Thursday, Aug 17, 2017 01:01]

For a lot of composers which have very limited conlusions I give example. What when we have next case: score 3+3+1.5(7.5)? Here we see how only one man can to block other two. 2/3 of judges jury voted for, but however problem not enter? It is not right. Election with only 3 judges is not good. Minimmum 5 judges are need for better evaluation
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(51) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Thursday, Aug 17, 2017 06:30]; edited by Darko Šaljić [17-08-17]

My comment only concerned Dragan's problems. Comparing him with the Marjan is the same as to do with Jacques and Michael. Jackues was just a coward on the track with the best car.
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(52) Posted by Administrator [Thursday, Aug 17, 2017 21:13]

This thread went off-topic and turned into personal insulting. If there is nothing to add about the topic, the thread will be closed.
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MatPlus.Net Forum General FIDE Album 2013-15 - section D - studies - protest against result