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MatPlus.Net  Forum Twomovers Novotny with en passant |
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| | Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2 | | (1) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 11:04] | Novotny with en passant
Reading again Jan Timman's book "The Art of the Endgame", he claims that a Novotny with en passant is not a real Novotny. Can this prove him wrong?
 (= 6+7 )
SH, original
Mate in 2
Dedicated to Jan Timman
1.c4! dxc3/Bxc4/Rxc4 2.Qd3/Qxd4/Qe6 mate
Of course, bSe7 can be replaced by bPb7+bPg6, but I like this position more.
Sadly dxc3 is not zweckrein, as it also opens the white queen's line, but fixing that would probably need a bit more material.
| | | (2) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 13:14] |
Remove Ra3!
| | | (3) Posted by Ian Shanahan [Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 14:12] |
If Ra3 is removed, Pg3 can be too!
| | | (4) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 15:44] |
Yes, and fixing that would probably need a bit less material ...
Or did I overlook something?
| | | (5) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 15:59] |
Words don't come easy. (F.R.David)
Is a Finn (replace by random other country) Novotny a "real" Novotny?
Right, the question is pointless since "real" isn't really defined.
Is it a bad, i.e. unartistic Novotny? Surely not, not for all those
Novotnys-with-a-peculiarity. They are merely...peculiar.
So, I, King Hauke I, decree that Novotnys with a subsequent e.p.
defense play shall be called Dutch Novotny from now on.
(One can NEVER have too much terminology.)
King Hauke I
| | | (6) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 20:38] |
Olaf overlooks that the point is that Ra3 is blocked by the pawn.
Here is a better illustration.
 (= 7+8 )
SH, original
Mate in 2
dedicated to Jan Timman
| | | (7) Posted by Kevin Begley [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 02:20]; edited by Kevin Begley [13-01-06] |
Novotny:
Simultaneous interception (by occupation) of two unlike-moving hostile riders.
Finnish Novotny:
Simultaneous interception (by occupation) of two unlike-moving hostile riders, onto a square already occupied.
Let's see if I have this correct...
Dutch Novotny: (?)
Simultaneous interception (by occupation) of two unlike-moving hostile riders, such that both lines can only be simultaneously opened (e.g., by en passant) by introducing at least one additional (new) self-interception.
I like the idea!
Can you show this with two separate methods of simultaneously opening both lines (e.g., offer ep capture to two pawns), such that you obtain not just a third, but also a fourth (separate) new self-interception?!
ps: regarding construction, would it be so bad to add (for example: wSc7 wPf6 bPb7,c7,f7,g6)?
I know the wS participates little, save to clean up the solution, but I thought maybe it's enough that it provides a false Novotny try (on c4), the double threat being 2.Sf2# (now that e3 is covered).
| | | (8) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 03:31] |
a quick search in WinChloe for 2# with Novotny + en passant gives 16 answers only. Perhaps the closest to what seems to be aimed here is :
Vasil Dyachuk
Die Schwalbe 1998
 (= 8+7 )
2#
1…Rd4 2.R×e3‡
1…Bd4 2.B×c4‡
1.Qd4? [2.R×e3,B×c4‡]
mais 1…e×f3!
1.d4! [2.R×e3,B×c4‡]
1…e×d3 e.p. 2.Rf2‡
1…c×d3 e.p. 2.Qb2‡
1…e×f3 2.Q×e3‡
| | | (9) Posted by Kevin Begley [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 04:46]; edited by Kevin Begley [13-01-06] |
You will likely not find a full list of anticipations on Win Chloe, Jacques -- because the theme is not defined!
Enter Siegfried's problem, and ask Win Chloe to find the themes.
You will see "Correction noire, Prise en passant, Anti-Reversal, Rudenko," but, no "Novotny" listed.
Sometimes people will add the theme manually, but there are numerous cases where this does not occur.
I was under the impression that they do not prefer to add themes not found by the thematic engine (whereas extraneous themes are often removed, on entry).
ps: That example is a beauty. And, it satisfies the "Dutch Novotny" theme, with a third (new) interference after 1...cxd3ep cuts off bR d6).
I wonder if there's any orthodox way to obtain a 4th interference (after 1...exd3ep).
Err, hmm. Now I wonder -- is this third (new) interference, after 1...cxd3ep, really proper?
Please don't ask me to define "really proper" -- it's a question!
The bPd3 is pinned here.
Not only does it obstruct the rook, it is itself held back by a pin!
Weird things are happening here.
| | | (10) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 05:37]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [13-01-06] |
'Novotny is not defined' means that Novotny is not recognized automatically by the solving program.
But 'Novotny' is listed in the list of themes, that means that who inputs a problem cannot be satisfied by the automatic proposals (they are as you underline it still to be perfected).
However I invite you do search 2# + Novotny + prise en passant , you will find what I told you.
The fact that Novotny is not automatic may mean that sometimes it had been forgotten... this is why I wrote precisely '...a quick search....'
| | | (11) Posted by Kevin Begley [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 07:01]; edited by Kevin Begley [13-01-06] |
>Novotny is not defined' means that Novotny is not recognized automatically by the solving program.
No, Jacques -- I meant this new type of Novotny (Dutch?) is not defined.
Suppose somebody entered an anticipation to Siegfried's problem, into the WC database.
Generally, they have the solving engine solve it, and let the theme engine crunch the themes.
Often they will remove the extraneous themes -- not always, sometimes they just click.
At the rate the problems are being entered, even given several contributors, things get missed (true in any database).
I have a retro #1 problem in the WC db, for years, which shows my try as the solution.
The point is: this type of Novotny (the Dutch Novotny) is not defined -- if it were, WC's theme engine would find it (and your anticipation search would be far more reliable).
>But 'Novotny' is listed in the list of themes, that means that who inputs a problem cannot be satisfied by the automatic proposals (they are as you underline it still to be perfected).
Bah. I don't want to go off topic, but let me quickly give you a clear example how they do not get perfected!
see record #172587.
I consider the solution to show a mixed AUW (the judge agreed, liked it, and awarded me 2nd Prize, though the award doesn't show in this db).
You do not see "AUW" listed here (you see no theme listed!)... and the reason is not only for lack of consideration by the entrant.
I petitioned that the flawed theme engine be fixed, to consider promotions by rebirth (for all promotion themes), in all circe conditions.
Not only my problems -- thousands of circe problems showing promotions are missing from searches.
I resubmitted my problem (along with many others), including the award it earned, plus the addition of the AUW theme.
These changes were denied.
In fact, very few of my corrections were applied -- including the retro #1 (mentioned above).
I inquired, and was told that some correction was being investigated.
I was told to resubmit the problem, showing the promotions (you can see the promotions listed in the solution now -- "11.D×f3(d1=C)" and "14.D×ç3(é1=T)+" -- with persistence, I managed to get these corrections approved)!
Guess what -- still does not show AUW theme (nor the award).
I tried again, but nothing ever happened.
Frankly, I have more faith in WIKI's correction process.
Since then, I have entered all of my problems on PDB (I completely ignore errors in the WC database).
>However I invite you do search 2# + Novotny + prise en passant , you will find what I told you.
The fact that Novotny is not automatic may mean that sometimes it had been forgotten... this is why I wrote precisely '...a quick search....'
Already did a number of searches.
But, I have little confidence in searches based upon WC's thematic data.
Particularly in cases where the theme is not discovered by the theme engine!
If it's important to Siegfried, I'll be happy to go through all of the orthodox #2, with en passant in this database.
That's the only reliable method of anticipation searching here -- because the theme engine does recognize en passant (and I still trust that legitimate themes found by the engine would not be deliberately removed).
| | | (12) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 08:43]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [13-01-06] |
Kevin,
I have no special interest in WinChloe.
You can list even many more defects and being right.
I'm used to look at PDB, YACPDB, and WinChloe. By far, till now, my preference goes to WinChloe.
To open a special file for comparisons, criticisms, proposals, and so on, could be a nice idea.
your 172587 is a very nice auw with 4 pawns. I had a look with a general search 'auw' I found more than 6000, several of them being mixed colours.
Yours is not pointed out as auw. However it is rather simple to find out all the auw, searching as follows :
solution like %=D% and solution like %=T% and solution like %=F% and solution like %=C%
| | | (13) Posted by Kevin Begley [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 09:25]; edited by Kevin Begley [13-01-06] |
All good points, Jacques.
And, I do agree -- I am extremely happy with Win Chloe, overall.
And, Christian has been extremely helpful with many things, over the years (so, really, I should not complain).
I just don't trust the thematic searches (and I haven't been overjoyed about the correction process).
But, I would still recommend Win Chloe, highly.
You make an especially good point about alternative search methods -- I have learned to devise a number of crafty alternatives, myself.
But, even at that, remember: my problem was corrected by hand (after considerable persistence).
If you solve for the last move, the engine gives: "1.D×ç3(Té1)+! C×ç3‡" -- not, "=T".
So, the many not corrected by hand (possibly future entries) will not show up in searches using either technique!
ps: and thanks!
| | | (14) Posted by [Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 23:31] |
 (= 7+5 )
W. Roese, Hamburger Tageblatt, II/1922
1. f4! (2. Se5,Qe4) ...Rf4/Bf4/ef3 e.p. 2. Se5/Qe4/Qd1
 (= 8+10 )
Benjamin M. Neill, Philadelphia Times, XII/1881
1. f4! (2. Kf2,Se5) ...Tf4/Lf4/ef3 e.p.++ 2. Se5/Kf2/Kf2
| | | (15) Posted by Harri Hurme [Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 23:14] |
Finnish Novotny:
Simultaneous interception (by occupation) of two unlike-moving hostile riders, onto a square already occupied.
The above is not adequate for the Finnish Nowotny. That is just what we finns call "Bulgarian Nowotny" :-). Genuine Finnish Nowotny requires additionally a try, which has the same double treats, but is refuted by moving the black pawn away from the lines crossing point (opening those two defence lines). The key takes the pawn.
Harri
| | | (16) Posted by Kevin Begley [Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 08:49]; edited by Kevin Begley [13-01-09] |
Hmm, if an interference theme requires a try, why should I consider it an interference theme?
| | | (17) Posted by Georgy Evseev [Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 09:28] |
Can somebody post a quote from Timman book?
Normally, the presence of any kind of defense parrying both Novotny threats (if there are two) has nothing to do with Novotny itself. So, all this discussion seems very irrelevant to me.
| | | (18) Posted by Sergiy Didukh [Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 10:00] |
Definition of the Novotny by Timman:
“The Novotny theme signifies that a piece is placed on the intersection between a diagonal of the opponent's bishop and a file (or rank) on which his rook operates.”
In relation with en-passant (before the study)
“It seemed interesting to create a study where the Novotny theme is linked with an en-passant capture. I did realize that this would merely be a pseudo-Novotny.”
(after the study)
“The move c2-c4 never fails to be spectacular, but it never results in a real Novotny. The en-passant capture closes off the c-file for the black rook.”
| | | (19) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 14:41] |
"...“The move c2-c4 never fails to be spectacular, but it never results in a real Novotny. The en-passant capture closes off the c-file for the black rook...”
That's right that in such a case(when the Novotny variations are weak defences) the Novotny remains somewhat a "potential Novotny" I guess it is what is meant here. In 2# this does not happen.
Generally, as far as I know problemists are not used to give a special name when it occurs (mainly in moremovers), but why not ?
| | | (20) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 15:26] |
a small comment off the topic about the problem of Dyachuk (post 8) : a special feature is to be underlined, I think,
V. Dyauchuk Die Schwalbe 1998 after 1.d4! [2.R×e3,B×c4‡] c×d3 e.p. 2.Qb2‡ (= 7+7 )
V. Dyauchuk Die Schwalbe 1998 after 1.d4! [2.R×e3,B×c4‡] e×d3 e.p. 2.Rf2‡ (= 7+7 )
in both cases would the pawn not being pinned, it could parry the check, moving like the black piece behind it. A kind of pawn-Holzhausen interference shown with diagonal/orthogonal correspondence.
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