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MatPlus.Net  Forum Competitions 14th ECSC in Moscow 4-6 May 2018 |
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| | Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | (21) Posted by Jorma Paavilainen [Friday, Feb 16, 2018 21:37] |
As Julia noted, there have been rather surprising messages. Inside jokes etc. may be interesting for the selected few, but seem to have nothing to do with the topic. Please, correct me if I am mistaken.
Many solvers may trust that the WFCC and/or single delegates work on this matter. Perhaps this is true and may explain the relative silence in this thread. In any case, valid information would be much preferable to trust.
Speaking only for myself as a potential ECSC participant: I am unhappy about the changes. Kaliningrad was chosen as the venue in the official WFCC meeting and would have been an interesting place to visit. Well, the change to Moscow was announced just in time and if the story would end here, everything would be OK. But now we are suddenly directed to another city, leading, for example, to increased travel costs. In my opinion, Marjan is absolutely right in questioning this course of events.
We are treated like cattle, but who are the cowboys?
| | | (22) Posted by Dragan Stojnić [Friday, Feb 16, 2018 22:01] |
Political games between Russia and Euro-Atlanthic countries are not welcome in chess problems field. Second relocation ECSC to Sochi only because local negotiations or maybe politic reasons is scandalous and ridiculous.
What is next destination for ECSC- maybe Krim, Arctic, Pridnestrovlje?
If organizers move event to other city, they must give at least same or better comfort for participants included gratis travel from Moscow to new destination!
If it is not case, I propose WFCC delegates to repeat election for host of ECSC.
| | | (23) Posted by Georgy Evseev [Saturday, Feb 17, 2018 09:37] |
Understanding the public concern, I'll try to give some information first-hand. At present, three people are working on organization of 14th ECSC - it's me, Alexander Feoktistov and a representative of the Russian Chess Federation, whose name is known to Harry. Alexander and me did not plan to take any part in the organization of ECSC and only found out that there are problems with the event about 10 days ago. The groundwork of preparation at that moment was minimal.
Choosing between "we have failed" and "we will do everything we can", Alexander and me had selected the second option and offered the RCF our help. To keep the announced dates and direct support of the RCF, Sochi was the only possible option.
We understand that such changes at the last moment are extremely unpleasant for everyone. So we are ready for any decision, including the transfer of ECSC to another country. Most of the criticism in this topic is absolutely valid, but we will continue to do our best. The invitation to Sochi and conditions of staying there were sent to Harry on February 16th for publication on WFCC site.
| | | (24) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Saturday, Feb 17, 2018 11:02]; edited by Darko Šaljić [18-02-17] |
You need to give our Russian friends a hand and give them all possible help, but I think you should think about Ohrid now, whether the Problem society of Macedonia exists at all?
| | | (25) Posted by Marco Bonavoglia [Saturday, Feb 17, 2018 12:04]; edited by Marco Bonavoglia [18-02-17] |
I’m no longer a delegate (but I was in Dresden) and I’m not a solver, so I discovered this problem just two days ago. Those present in Dresden will remember that there was only one invitation for the ECSC, so the vote was almost not necessary. I totally agree with Julia and Marjan: it seems natural to cancel the ECSC for 2018, or possibly postpone it after the WCCC in Ohrid. We did vote for Kaliningrad not for wherever in Russia. Russia is a huge country and moving the ECSC location by more than two thousand kilometers is not fair to anybody (even the legality of moving to Moscow was debatable, but at least Moscow is easy to reach and the announcement was done well in advance). Moving the location now (and still without an official invitation) doesn’t make any sense to me.
For the future I think that we should write down in the rules that the invitation is for a location and a date and a price, any change should cause a new bid and a new vote. Anonymous vote online is possible: https://www.adoodle.org/ is the first one I found; I haven’t cheked the details, but there are many other possibilities if anonymity is deemed necessary.
PS: [edited] I only noticed now that an invitation has been issued (message by Georgy) but that doesn't change much at this point.
| | | (26) Posted by Andrey Selivanov [Saturday, Feb 17, 2018 16:36] |
I wrote to Mr. Tkachev (Deputy Executive Director of the RSF), who was not named by Mr. Evseev, that the idea of transferring the championship to Sochi is stupid.
If the RSF does not want me to participate in the preparation, I will step aside. But why move 2,000 miles from Moscow? In the fall of 2017 RCF was agreed that the championship will be in Moscow.
| | | (27) Posted by Julia Vysotska [Sunday, Feb 18, 2018 10:31]; edited by Julia Vysotska [18-02-18] |
Still, here it is, Invitation to ECSC 2018, www.wfcc.ch/competitions/solving/ecsc2018/
| | | (28) Posted by Julia Vysotska [Monday, Feb 19, 2018 17:32] |
Today for my announcement to Latvian solvers that ECSC is moved to Sochi, I got a reply from one of "my" solvers, Stasis Granauskis, that he took seriously the previous announcement on WFCC and did pay his stay in hotel Cosmos, in not refundable way, 3-7.05. His booking and payment were made on 9. February.
I know that Stasis was planning to go to Kaliningrad from the beginning (it is relatively close to Riga). Later on, being already inspired with this idea, he decided to prepare for Moscow. Now, with regret, he's writing to me that couldn't expect the 2nd change of place, and can't play these games anymore. Luckily, my warning mail a week ago, after Harry's note, prevented him from ordering visa and flight ticket.
You may remember Stasis from the Riga ECSC as a kind man making photos of the participants. He is retired and his pension doesn’t allow him to gamble and become a victim of our organizational chaos. Even now he wasn't willing to fight or to bother me with this. But, trying to give more enthusiasm to Latvian solvers through the competitions organized the last 2 years, now I feel guilty for our organization. So, let me ask, who might be responsible for Stasis' loss: Andrey, RFC or WFCC? Who are really the organizers of ECSC at that moment to help to cancel the reservation with refund? I believe it would be fair and also possible to do so.
| | | (29) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Monday, Feb 19, 2018 17:34] |
I believe at least in Germany he would have a legal right to be refunded. The question is only, by whom.
| | | (30) Posted by Peter Gvozdjak [Monday, Feb 19, 2018 18:46] |
julia,
a very sad story indeed.
imho, if the RCF changed the venue in such a late stage, they should help with canceling the hotel reservation in moscow in all cases like this and arrange complete return of money.
this should be the ultimate condition from the WFCC side.
otherwise the ECSC in sochi should be disapproved by our organization.
this time i am not kidding…
| | | (31) Posted by Piotr Murdzia [Monday, Feb 19, 2018 20:14] |
Dear Chess Friends,
I think we should not accept the change of the venue from Moscow to Sochi. I didn't like the first change, but finally accepted it, but the second (maybe not final) change to Sochi is something nobody has voted before.
In my opinion all delegates should vote again. In that case it is necessary to postpone the date of the event.
If things remain as it is now I am ready to think seriously of my absence during ESCS.
Best regards,
Piotr Murdzia
| | | (32) Posted by Torsten Linß [Monday, Feb 19, 2018 22:16] |
I’m not a solver [in the sense that I’m competing in competitions], but I do have an opinion on this.
The RCF is not interacting with WFCC in a correct way, and is not treating our solvers with the respect
they deserve. They must keep their internal quarrels to themselves and fulfill their commitments towards
WFCC. And this is to organise ECSC as promised by their by then vice president. The latest changes
divert way too far from the initial offer.
Also I don’t understand WFCC accepting these changes and saying “there is no alternative”. In
particular taking such an important decision without consulting the delegates [as Marjan confirmed]
There are alternatives:
- having a year without ECSC
- making a call for new bids in the hope, that someone is able to arrange something at short notice.
If circumstances are not right, the event will turn into disappointment for everybody, for those who
attend, for those who do not and for the organisers.
... and I don’t understand why a former vice president should not be allowed to run an event just
because he has not been re-elected. Is it to humiliate him? Is this how civilised people treat one
another?
| | | (33) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 04:32]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [18-02-20] |
What happens here is a bit strange
WFCC has a president, and a praesidium. They have to take care of these kind of questions.
"The reasons why..." has no interest for us.
I remember very well how the late and regretted Uri had to manage a similar case, and cancelled a venue to Bulgaria.
I remember also how this has been difficult for him with all kind of criticisms.
| | | (34) Posted by Petko Petkov [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 07:32] |
ABOUT ROTENBERG`S PUBLICATION
Jacques,
Obviously, your memories are quite wrong. I'm sorry I need to write about a deceased person - I respected Uri as a great author and man and I think these feelings were mutual (I recently was the judge of his memorial tournament!)
But the truth must always be above all. And for it everybody has to remember!
I remind you that Bulgaria refused to organize the congress at all, because Uri quite wrong and even rude (and too late!) demand a reduction of prices for the famed Iberostar Hotel in Golden Sands. I remind you that these prices was too low (€ 75) for a hotel of such famous class, but Uri wanted more new concessions (!!??), though everything was already decided at the our congress. After this absurd and super surprising, unexpected interference of the President, the Bulgarian Chess Federation with indignation refused the organization and suffered financial and moral damages...
This case is well known to all delegates and of course to our presidium who should keep the documentation for this incident. I do not have to prove to you that it has nothing to do with the present case connected with the solvers championship in Russia!
Petko Petkov
| | | (35) Posted by Darko Šaljić [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 07:58] |
There is a possibility to organize something like a ISC, and the result to be a combination of solving and composing Ty, to reduce the impact of those who are not playing fair.
| | | (36) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 17:47] |
As far as I can understand, the good execution and "details" of our meetings are under the responsibility of the elected president - and the presidium.
Prices, locations, dates, general conditions.
The votes come once a year, and then the acceptance or refusal of changes are their job.
I just recall the case of Bulgaria to show how all this is difficult.
Perhaps in Bulgaria it was painful for some individuals, but for sure Uri suffered very much from all the attacks he had to undergo.
I just try with this to explain the prudence, and heavy silence, of Harry in the present event.
| | | (37) Posted by Vilimantas Satkus [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 18:10] |
I saw only helpless whisper of our President: there were no alternatives left to the WFCC and it had to be accepted. /Harry Fougiaxis, the President of WFCC/. But where are the voices of presidium, delegates and authorities of national organisations for chess composition. Or we are people without any self-respect? I am repeating the Marjan`s question 3: Do we need ECSC at any price?
| | | (38) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 19:48] |
"...there were no alternatives left to the WFCC..."
It is exactly the question
If there appears serious problems an event may be cancelled.
So far, it seems that the President's choice is to accept all this, though for sure it is not pleasant for him either.
It's not comfortable to take on responsibilities.
| | | (39) Posted by Marjan Kovačević [Tuesday, Feb 20, 2018 22:19] |
There are two different groups of questions here: “burning” and principled. Among the “burning” questions, one is simple and urgent: who will cover the loss of people who have already paid for Moscow, as Mr. Stasis Granauskis did?
As Peter put it, if the Russian Chess Federation takes over the organization, they should take responsibility for all such losses, as a minimal compensation for breaking the previous deal. Besides, what is a problem for the powerful RCF to influence the Cosmos Hotel and give back money for unused space in May?
If we don’t solve such cases, the WFCC may suffer effects of serious legal actions. Isn’t it cheaper for everybody to bring ECSC back to Moscow?
Some “colder” questions about future appeared in the Post 19, but they have attracted little attention. I will repeat them, and give my opinions:
1. Should delegates be informed and consulted in such cases?
As a delegate and solver I knew nothing about either of changes, or how the decisions were made. If in October there was still enough time for participants to adjust from Kaliningrad to Moscow, February is different story. Less than 3 months to start, many already buy tickets and reserve hotels.
So, not only WFCC delegates, but potential participants should have been informed and consulted.
2. Should WFCC accept whatever offered, without bargaining?
No! Especially not against irrespective partner, arrogantly using ECSC as a political battlefield.
3. Should we insist on having at least 2 bids for every competition, and rely on reserve?
Yes! I warned WFCC about this kind of risk the last time we had only one bid. The previous time we were lucky, but this time we were not...
| | | (40) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Feb 21, 2018 01:24] |
"...Besides, what is a problem for the powerful RCF to influence the Cosmos Hotel and give back money for unused space in May?..."
let the different actors of this (wfcc, rcf, hotel...)demonstrate their good will, and help the unfortunate victims to recover their money...
"...If we don’t solve such cases, the WFCC may suffer effects of serious legal actions. Isn’t it cheaper for everybody to bring ECSC back to Moscow?..."
I think the threat of "legal actions" is only theoretic and not at all realistic
on your questions, my opinions:
1. Should delegates be informed and consulted in such cases?
I think not. There is a president. The president may - or not - ask the presidium, and/or the delegates, but it is not mandatory.
"...potential participants should have been informed and consulted..."
There is an official website for wfcc so... :
the announcement of October 2017 was this :
"
14th ECSC in Moscow
October 4, 2017 | 5 - ECSC
We were notified by the organisers of the 14th ECSC that the championship will not take place at Kaliningrad, as the initially foreseen hotel had to arrange some other events in that weekend. The new venue and dates are as follows:
Organiser: Chess Composition Committee of the Russian Chess Federation
Dates: 4-6 May 2018 (Friday to Sunday)
City: Moscow
Venue: Hotel Cosmos*** (Prospect Mira 150, Moscow)
Website: http://www.hotelcosmos.ru
Prices: 30 EUR per person in a double room, 50 EUR per person in a single room
Prices include breakfast, free wi-fi, parking
Registration fee: 45 EUR
The hotel shall provide support to the participants for the issue of visas
Contact person: Andrey Selivanov, selivanovav@gmail.com
The official invitation will be issued in December. /Harry Fougiaxis, the President of WFCC "
it is clearly written that it is not an official invitation so the question of the responsibility of wfcc in case of damages is at least difficult.
"...2. Should WFCC accept whatever offered, without bargaining?..."
Of course not. It depends on the president to validate any change, new prices, new dates, new location...
"...No! Especially not against irrespective partner, arrogantly using ECSC as a political battlefield..."
It's no use using adjectives. Also the supposed background has nothing to do with wfcc
3. Should we insist on having at least 2 bids for every competition, and rely on reserve?
I think not, for practical reasons.
In any case the president may manage to find a last minute new bid, or to cancel the event
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