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|(1) Posted by Colin Sydenham [Saturday, Oct 21, 2006 18:02]|
Colin Sydenham h#2 duplex, 5th Com Diagrammes 2005
(6+12) Sols: B-> 1.b3, Bd2; 2.g4, Sf5# W-> 1.b3, Rd2; 2.g4, Sf5#
B & W play to the same squares.
The judge's only comment was "partially anticipated".
Can anyone draw my attention to the anticipation(s)?
|(2) Posted by Milan Velimirović [Sunday, Oct 22, 2006 17:53]|
Is it possible to get a correct position (forget the economy!) with BQa2 and WQa5? Then the B & W would play to the same square with SAME PIECES. I got it only in an illegal position.
|(3) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Sunday, Oct 22, 2006 20:30]|
I could give some 2# with the same theme -
but if *only* the theme was anticipated
(and be it in h#) the judge deserves
some light pummeling :-) (BTW, you could
simply have asked him to snailmail you
the problem. I surely would have done that
for sheer curiosity.)
|(4) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Sunday, Oct 22, 2006 21:14]|
Milan's idea is great. If you put queens on a2 and a5 then solutions are identical and that's a great paradox. I constructed quickly version with two queens:
1.b3 Qd2 2.g4 Sf5#
1.b3 Qd2 2.g4 Sf5#
|(5) Posted by Milan Velimirović [Sunday, Oct 22, 2006 23:45]; edited by Milan Velimirović [06-10-23]|
Misha, it is not clear which solutions is for which side :)) I have two suggestions:
1) Solution should be written:
B-> 1.b3 Qd2 2.g4 Sf5#
which leads us to
2) Why don't we call it a "Ditto" theme ?
And one observation: assuming that with BSh4 the problem is still sound (which is not the case here!), there would be a thematic impurity 2... (black)Sdf5#
|(6) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Oct 23, 2006 07:56]|
I like more name "copycat theme".
In addition if none of the moves are same the name should be "pseudo copycat theme". Pseudo usually covers for all those "small" differences between real theme and some simple trivial mechanism :).
|(7) Posted by Milan Velimirović [Monday, Oct 23, 2006 13:48]; edited by Milan Velimirović [06-10-23]|
"Ditto by Vito"
Everything is connected: if a butterfly waves its wings in China the result may be a Hurricane in Florida :)
In the same way, as soon as one "ditto" example is recognized, another pops-up!
A small impurity: 1... c4+ (check) vs. 1... c4 (no check)
|Vito Rallo, G. M. Frantzov|
1.Bb4 c4 2.Kc5 Qg1#
| ||b) Rotation 270°h#2|
(i.e. 1.Bb4 c4 2.Kc5 Qg1#)
|(8) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Monday, Oct 23, 2006 14:40]|
"Ditto", please. And if just for the rhyme :-)
For more dittoing in the 2#, I refer to my webpage,
especially my Schwalbe 8708.
|(9) Posted by Milan Velimirović [Monday, Oct 23, 2006 15:15]|
Thanks Hauke, I made "a posteriory" detto => ditto changes in my faulty posts.
P.S: Now I realize why I couldn't find the word in the dictionary :)
|(10) Posted by Colin Sydenham [Monday, Oct 23, 2006 17:00]|
Thank you, Milan and Misha, for improving my problem in a way which, I confess, I never thought of.
I'm still wondering about the 'partial anticipation(s)'
|(11) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Monday, Oct 23, 2006 18:13]|
I know more helpmates showing same solution in twins but I never saw before duplex showing this. Here is one problem with 6 pieces from Nikola Predrag
"Five Days Ty. Fairy", Pula 2000
H#2 b) rotation 180 degrees
a)b) 1.e5 Qc6+ 2.Kd4 Sf5#
It's nice that Queen checks bK in both solutions. I am sure that I saw one more H#2 in some FIDE album long time ago. It has to be 15-20 years old problem. However I newer saw duplex showing this theme.
|(12) Posted by Joose Norri [Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 10:45]|
Here you find another duplex:
|(13) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 11:51]; edited by Harry Fougiaxis [06-10-24]|
Searching in the PDB, I found these three previous examples in duplex form.
I am almost sure there may be a couple more, but I cannot trace them right now.
2099 Mat-Pat 1993
a) and b) 1.Rc5 bxc5 2.g5 f5#
137 harmonie 41 31/08/1993
a) and b) 1.g6 Rxg6 2.c3 e4#
Raimo Sailaksen-50 JT 1997
a) and b) 1.a4 Rxa4 2.Sd6 Sf6#
|(14) Posted by Milan Velimirović [Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 12:12]|
... and none anticipates Colin's problem, so there is no answer to the initial question yet.
|(15) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 14:54]|
Like I said, that entirely depends on the meaning of
I prefer Colins problem over the last three ones as
the mechanics is less schematic.
But still a judge could say "So there, the *theme*
had been done before."
|(16) Posted by Colin Sydenham [Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 18:54]|
I agree with Milan's comment (14). A problem is not anticipated merely because its theme has been shown before. If it was, there would be very few unanticipated problems around. Admittedly some judges are unsound on this point. Too quick to call something anticipated just because they've seen its theme before. I don't yet know if I'd think that's happened here.
|(17) Posted by Guy Sobrecases [Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 11:08]|
I did not find any anticipation (even partial) in the Winchloé database. I think that Antonio was the judge, and has perhaps found some examples which are not included in the base. He can probably give them to you. That would be kind from you to show these examples on the Mat Plus forum when you'll get them :-)
|(18) Posted by Michael McDowell [Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 20:35]|
The idea as shown in the Rallo & Frantzov and Predrag helpmates (same solution after board rotation) seems to have originated with Attila Benedek in the 1970s, and there are numerous examples by him in the PDB. The trouble with such problems is that it is very difficult to incorporate interesting content.
One variation which I haven't seen apart from the following very poor example involves translation of the position rather than rotation. Maybe an area for investigation? (I have my doubts....)
British Chess Magazine October 2000
Helpmate in 2 b) all pieces up one rank
1.Ka6 a4 2.b5 axb5
|(19) Posted by Colin Sydenham [Friday, Dec 1, 2006 11:07]|
Having e-mailed the judge I now know that forerunner he had in mind was the Harkola problem cited by Harry in his contribution above. I had never seen this, but it would not have inhibited me from publishing my problem.
Since this has already been seen, I don't think there's anything more to be said.
|(20) Posted by Boško Milošeski [Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 17:07]|
Vo problemot na "Colin Sydenham h#2 duplex, 5th Com Diagrammes 2005" vo B pozicija ko ga crniot matira,lovecot na h2 [Bh2] e visok!
Vo verzijata na M.Mladenovic pak vo: A pozicija koga beliot matira skokacot na c7 [Sc7] e visok, a vo B pozicija ko ga crniot matira,lovecot na h2 [Bh2] e visok!
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